Reloading the .44WCF .44-40

[Little Dalton]

This is going to be a long-winded rant, hope someone enjoys it. I plan to add to this thread as I get things changed and upgraded. I WELCOME any and all suggestions and input, but will least appreciate suggestions to buy more expensive presses or go off-press where I'm not yet willing to.  This thread is LEE Precision heavy, my apologies to the folks that I know will be seriously bothered by that. I plan to go blue when I get a bit more flush. For now, I'm happy to fiddle and tinker.

This will sound weird, but the venerable .44WCF cartridge is literally the only round I reload right now- outside of my hand-loaded all brass 20ga BP loads. That will change someday. I shoot the .44 in a Cimarron-Uberti 1873 Winchester clone with 24" barrel, and my every day carry Cimarron-Uberti Colt clone with 7-1/2" barrel. Side note- I've worn the latter pretty much out internally and let the barrel get a little freckling, so I am planning to send it off for rebuild by Jim Finch of Long Hunter's in Amarillo soon. I believe I am going to have the barrel shortened or replaced to 4-3/4"- just going to be handier as a carry gun. I also only load black powder. I'm planning to get more guns in the same caliber for my hunting and homesteading family of nine, so I foresee burning a lot more ammo. What I need is a reasonably fast production setup on a tight budget, and I want the most accurate ammo I can reasonably make- with some compromises between those two things. One is that I'm not using a drop tube because I use a Lee auto-disk powder measure, which moves with the turret on my current setup consisting of a Lee Classic four-hole turret press with Lee sizing, seating, and powder-thru expander dies, finishing up with a Redding Profile Crimp die to finish up. The Lee turret press has served me very well, and saves so much time and space over a single-stage. Only thing I had to mod was to add a homemade spring arm to make the primer arm tip reliably.

Now to the dies. In my experience, .44-40 just isn't as hard to reload in itself as many make it out to be, and boy do I get sick of folks repeating the myth that it is. I still have yet to crush a case. What I HAVE found is that it IS hard to set up for, mostly because of discrepancies in manufacturer specs. Most modern .44WCF guns use larger bores than original 1873 rifles did, but chamber and die specs haven't evolved and standardized as they should. Modern .44-40 revolvers tend to have tight chambers that are very unforgiving of the slightest bulge in the thin case mouth, and in some cases I've heard they won't allow the user to chamber a bullet that is appropriately sized to the bore. I bought Lee dies out of the gate because I wanted to use the powder-through die with the auto powder measure, but I would have been much better served I from what I have heard to buy that die separately and get a set of RCBS Cowboy dies, as supposedly they don't overwork the brass as much by resizing the throats WAY below the necessary size as the Lee does. I need to confirm from someone though that the RCBS Cowboy sizing die is actually better in this regard before pulling the trigger on a set of dies just for the one.

Current components: Mixed brass, mostly Starline though. Whatever GOEX powder I have come across, fixing to switch entirely to Swiss 1.5f or 3f. CCI LP primers. Accurate/John Kort 43-215C boolits, cast in wheelweights. Homemade lube, as oily as I can make it. Beeswax and olive oil.

Current dies, in their positions in the 4-hole turret:

1. Lee die. Size, decap, prime on downstroke. Sizing is necessary because of differences in the chambers of my two guns. I had to modify this die by grinding the base to drop the shoulder of the case by quite a bit to match the lower shoulder of the chambers in the revolver. The Lee sizing die also leaves the necks much smaller than is necessary, which is annoying, but only because it overworks the brass- not really a problem otherwise.

2: Lee Powder-through expander with pro auto-disk measure, expands, flares and charges. This is working ok, but the expander plug is undersized for my boolits, and the curved flare makes seating boolits straight difficult. Many folks swap out the plug for a .44 mag one to help with the diameter issue, but I bought several and they were all within .001" of the original plug. An option would be to make a new properly-sized (and shaped!) expander plug in the style of the Lyman M/NOE plugs. Wish NOE would offer plugs for the Lee powder-through dies again. I'm going to be expanding using an NOE plug in a Lee universal expander die when I switch to the Loadmaster press- more on that later.

3. Lee die. Boolit seated, powder compressed with boolit, crimp started to keep boolit in place. Compressing powder with boolit is less than ideal I know, and I hope to change that in the future, but I'm not currently willing to go off-press to use a compression die. I had to customize the seater plug to support the nose of the boolit and eliminate deformation. I crimp just enough to keep the boolit from backing out, which it will otherwise do.

4. Redding Profile Crimp Die, finish crimp. This die is worth every penny, and all of my crimp bulge issues are gone after switching to it. I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die for years, and I know many folks love them, but I will never go back to the Lee FCD for this cartridge.

I am currently rebuilding a Lee Loadmaster (including all of the mods and extras from mikesreloadingbench.com) and as I set it up I'm looking forward to the fifth station. I really wish I could add a powder compression die, but so far I haven't figured out a way to add it and still keep my separate crimping die. There's enough stations- problem is, some of them are pretty well fixed in what you can do. The Loadmaster primes on the upstroke on Station 2, which has it's own limitations, including elimination of the charging option on that station. I'm not at all bothered by the "risks" of using black powder in the Lee measure, but there is no way in hell I'm priming while charging, even if the Loadmaster didn't have it's dubious reputation when it comes to primers and priming. Current plan is to add a separate Lee universal expander die with NOE plug in station 2. I will be using a bullet feeder on the Loadmaster, but will start out without a case feeder as the stock feed tubes are too tight for the rims of .44-40 brass- which are significantly larger than those of .45 Colt believe it or not. Eventually, I'll make new feed tubes of copper after the example of Roy Bertalotto of rvbprecision.com. I also plan to look into the possibility of making a riser for the Auto Disk measure that is 22"+ tall to function as a drop tube. This wasn't really practical on the turret press as the measure jerks around with the turret, and added weight on the turret isn't great. But the switch to the Loadmaster progressive press with stationary dies has me thinking. 

Anyways, here's a summary of the Loadmaster's die setup limitations in it's factory configuration: 1. If decapping is done on the press, it must be done on Station 1. If priming is done on the press, it must be done on Station 2, and is on the upstroke. It's best to have a die in this station as well, to get perfect alignment for priming. The powder measure must be located at Station 3, which leaves the very limited options of two completely free stations at 4 and 5. I really love my Redding PCD- but I have heard good things about RCBS Cowboy dies and the seating/crimp die. Might be worth a try to see if I can do those two tasks in one die, thereby making room for a powder compression die at Station 4. Maybe another reason to get those Cowboy dies. That new Six-Pack Pro 6000 is looking mighty nice right now.

So here's the summary of the die setup I'm going to try first on the Loadmaster:

1. Size/decap. I may go to decapping off press prior to wet tumbling. I see an APP in the future. And another case feeder mod headache.

2. Prime, expand with NOE plug.

3. Charge with Pro Auto-Disk measure.

4. Boolit seated, compressing charge.

5. Finish Crimp.

Nuff for now. I know some of this was a bit redundant, but if anyone found it enjoyable or maybe even helpful, let me know. I'll have an update within the next couple weeks after the Loadmaster parts come in and I get some stuff put together. Maybe I'll also figure out how to post pics on here...

[Cliff Fendley]

No offense intended but you're absolutely right it's just a long winded rant. LOL Just kidding ya 

Let me simplify. I have drawers full of dies. Tried them all. For the easiest to make and THE BEST 44-40 ammo. RCBS Cowboy dies followed by Lee FCD. Period. I honestly might as well throw every other kind and brand of dies away for the WCF calibers because RCBS Cowboy dies and Lee FCD is all I'll ever use. No reason to waste time on anything else.

It's not hard to set up either, same basic adjustments like loading anything. Set the Cowboy dies just like normal, I load on a progressive so for rounds running .429 and .430 bullets I do use a 44mag expander mandrel in my dillon powder funnel. Set the FCD to just put a little squeeze not to deform the bullet. Done and never look back.

[Cap'n Redneck]

Should You wish to reduce the amount of powder in the loads, then You might consider adding another LEE Auto-Disc measure dispensing sesame seeds.  It will fill the void between powder and bullet, and add lubrication.  The main problem would probably be to find room for the extra "sesame-measure" on top of the 4-hole turret plate...

[Little Dalton]

No offense intended but you're absolutely right it's just a long winded rant. LOL Just kidding ya 

Let me simplify. I have drawers full of dies. Tried them all. For the easiest to make and THE BEST 44-40 ammo. RCBS Cowboy dies followed by Lee FCD. Period. I honestly might as well throw every other kind and brand of dies away for the WCF calibers because RCBS Cowboy dies and Lee FCD is all I'll ever use. No reason to waste time on anything else.

It's not hard to set up either, same basic adjustments like loading anything. Set the Cowboy dies just like normal, I load on a progressive so for rounds running .429 and .430 bullets I do use a 44mag expander mandrel in my dillon powder funnel. Set the FCD to just put a little squeeze not to deform the bullet. Done and never look back.

Man, I really do need to get a set of the Cowboy dies- but you couldn't get me back to the LFCD from the Redding PCD for all the tea in China. Promise you, it's that good.

[Little Dalton]

Should You wish to reduce the amount of powder in the loads, then You might consider adding another LEE Auto-Disc measure dispensing sesame seeds.  It will fill the void between powder and bullet, and add lubrication.  The main problem would probably be to find room for the extra "sesame-measure" on top of the 4-hole turret plate...

Welp, won't have that problem- 'cause I am only ever trying to fit MORE BP in the case, not less!  I like full house loads all the way.

[Trailrider]

I can NOT tell you about RCBS Cowboy dies in .44-40, as all I have ever used for .44-40 are the REGULAR RCBS dies. As Cliff Fendley said, I use a .44 Mangle-em expander for .429-.430 bullets. I roll crimp lightly (just enough so you can see the curvature of the case mouth into the bullet's cannelure or grease groove. I do size slightly below the base of the bullet, which prevents the bullet from backing into the case...I shoot smokeless exclusively.  Hope this helps.

[Cliff Fendley]

Man, I really do need to get a set of the Cowboy dies- but you couldn't get me back to the LFCD from the Redding PCD for all the tea in China. Promise you, it's that good.

I've got some Redding crimp dies have to disagree for the 44-40. They are fine for the heavy magnum smokeless stuff but even then don't do anything the Lee won't do other than the make more of a roll crimp when getting down on them hard. They are more sensitive to case length though, the Lee FCD is not and I NEVER bother trimming cases. My wife and I are currently running 44-40 brass with well over 10 firings on it and it loads just the same as first firing with the Lee die. If all you care about is making ammo that feeds then great, I load for accuracy and test.

So yes it does make a prettier crimp if over crimping but over crimping is not necessary and actually too much with these dies is counterproductive in 44-40 loads when trying to run 429 and 430 lead bullets to match modern bore diameters. 

[Cliff Fendley]

I can NOT tell you about RCBS Cowboy dies in .44-40, as all I have ever used for .44-40 are the REGULAR RCBS dies. As Cliff Fendley said, I use a .44 Mangle-em expander for .429-.430 bullets. I roll crimp lightly (just enough so you can see the curvature of the case mouth into the bullet's cannelure or grease groove. I do size slightly below the base of the bullet, which prevents the bullet from backing into the case...I shoot smokeless exclusively.  Hope this helps.

Spot on Trailrider. Proper expander and minimal crimp as necessary for good feeding. I wonder how many people don't measure and don't realize they are squeezing their 429 and 430 bullets down to 427 during the loading process. I generally prefer the Lee FCD mostly because I run it on a Dillon progressive it is not case length sensitive for cases with many firings on them. When I load specific BP rounds for long range for certain rifles I do use a roll crimp die and just close up the flare. If it fits back in the chamber I don't squeeze the case at all.

[Little Dalton]

I've got some Redding crimp dies have to disagree for the 44-40. They are fine for the heavy magnum smokeless stuff but even then don't do anything the Lee won't do other than the make more of a roll crimp when getting down on them hard. They are more sensitive to case length though, the Lee FCD is not and I NEVER bother trimming cases. My wife and I are currently running 44-40 brass with well over 10 firings on it and it loads just the same as first firing with the Lee die. If all you care about is making ammo that feeds then great, I load for accuracy and test.

So yes it does make a prettier crimp if over crimping but over crimping is not necessary and actually too much with these dies is counterproductive in 44-40 loads when trying to run 429 and 430 lead bullets to match modern bore diameters.

I'm certainly trying not to over-crimp- and I'm definitely not squeezing the bullet. As to accuracy, I'll admit that I haven't checked rounds from the FCD against those from the PCD, but I do seem to get great accuracy so I've never felt the need. I've also never liked the mark left by the FCD, and when I was using it, routinely got bulges behind the crimp that would stick in my tight revolver chambers. Maybe I was over-crimping? Also, are all Redding roll crimp dies the same? I was under the impression the Profile Crimp Die was a little different than the average crimping die. I will also say I NEVER trim brass, and have not had any issues- that said, I can see how a roll crimp would be inconsistent in pressure with cases of inconsistent length, affecting accuracy.

[Trailrider]

Spot on Trailrider. Proper expander and minimal crimp as necessary for good feeding. I wonder how many people don't measure and don't realize they are squeezing their 429 and 430 bullets down to 427 during the loading process. I generally prefer the Lee FCD mostly because I run it on a Dillon progressive it is not case length sensitive for cases with many firings on them. When I load specific BP rounds for long range for certain rifles I do use a roll crimp die and just close up the flare. If it fits back in the chamber I don't squeeze the case at all.

I don't think my .429-.430" bullets are being squeezed down during loading with the regular RCBS seating die. However, my hard cast bullets do get squeezed down going through the .425" throats of my OM Ruger Vaqueros! Because the bullets (commercial BHN 17-22) are relatively hard, and the dwell time passing through the throats is so short, the compressive stresses in the metal matrix don't have time to disappate as heat, so they re-expand in the forcing cone.  Accuracy is about 1-5/8" at 25 yds hand held on the bench.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Loading the 44-40 can be a bit problematic.  The case is really thin which in some cases is a benefit as one can use ones fingers to reshape mis-shapened cases to fit into the sizing die or get close enough to round that mild application of the expanding die gets the neck round enough to properly size.  There is also a down side to the soft neck as one must be really careful to center the case as it enters the sizing die and also make sure the expander is centered on the case or one can destroy a case.  I use lee dies and do not have a standard crimp die as crimp is not built into the seating die in the lee set with the FCD.  I generally make a fairly light crimp but sufficient to keep the bullet from being pushed back into the case in the 73 mag tube.

If doing a roll crimp one must trim cases to reasonably same length and be careful not to over crimp and bulge the case.  Your micrometer or caliper can be your friend when used in conjunction with the dimensioned drawing of the case or comparing to known good round.  A case gauge will also identify problematic rounds, The cylinder from your revolver works as well. The chamber of the rifle will tell you a lot as well.  Some are reluctant to chamber a loaded round.  I generally make a dummy round when setting up my dies, the dummy can safely be run thru the rifle chamber if one objects to cycling live rounds

[Abilene]

When people talk about 44-40 bullets getting squeezed down during loading, they are primarily talking about rounds that have bulges or otherwise won't chamber, so they take the decapping pin out of their resizing die and resize the loaded round.  This does allow the rounds to chamber, but squeezes the loaded bullet down somewhat as well.

I've always used Lee dies including the Lee FCD on my 32-20 and 44-40 rounds and love it.  I don't mind the little mark it makes on the brass and have never had a failure from that mark, just routine little splits at the mouth on occasion.  My main loading problem, especially with .429 bullets, is that the bullet does not seat straight and so makes a bulge on one side of the neck down where the base of the bullet is (yes, I'm using a 44 mag belling die).  Switching to .428 bullets helped but it still happens sometimes.  I do not know if the shape of the seating stem has anything to do with it or not.  Very carefully placing the bullet as straight as possible on the flared case, and seating slowly, seem to help some but still the random round will have some bulge on one side.  These may be tight in a revolver cylinder (which is also my "cartridge gauge") but the camming action of the rifle will chamber them fine without feeling tight.  I expect this probably affects accuracy somewhat but for CAS main match it makes no difference.  I think switching to a different seating die might fix the problem but that is on the back burner.

[Bryan Austin]

The Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp die is BOSS! The 44-40 was never designed to be roll crimped.
I use the Profile crimp for both .428" lead bullets without a crimp groove and with the .4255" Winchester JSP bullets with a crimp groove. One Die, two different crimps.

When using Reloder 7 with the 44-40 loads, crimping is critical. The amount of crimp can increase my loads from 1,300fps to 1,450fps just from the crimp amount.

Crimp Details Here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/handloading/die-sets

[Sedalia Dave]

I discovered that if the case mouth is dented that he resizing and belling dies do not restore it to round and it will wrinkle when attempting to seat a bullet.

I have a short tapered mandrel made from an old punch that I use to remove any dents in the case mouth before resizing. Since I started doing that I haven't wrinkled another case.

[Abilene]

I discovered that if the case mouth is dented that he resizing and belling dies do not restore it to round and it will wrinkle when attempting to seat a bullet.

I have a short tapered mandrel made from an old punch that I use to remove any dents in the case mouth before resizing. Since I started doing that I haven't wrinkled another case.

I use the butt end of a Sharpie. 

[King Medallion]

I use the butt end of a Sharpie. 

Yep, me too

[Coffinmaker]

Ha 

I don't load 44-40.  But I do make 45 Colt out of 44-40.  Does that count??

Be Careful Out There

[Bryan Austin]

I use Black Powder Flask spout

[Slamfire]

 I am using 2 RCBS Cowboy dies, to expand & prime & to seat and crimp my 427098 (Lyman) lubed or PC'd, but i deprime & size on a LEE die.
My 427098's are sized to .426, "IF" i PC, & size to .428 dia., "IF" i lube i size to .428. I use a 1980's model LEE 1000 (3 hole'r).
I light crimp at the forward edge of the driving band  for a OAL of 1.602, w/ 22.5gns. of IMR 4198 = mid 1300's fps. (YMMV).
 
  coffee's ready,  Hootmix

[King Medallion]

I use Black Powder Flask spout

Thats a good idea!