shotgun shells and the whole dram equiv spec...

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I load BP brass (magtech) shotshhells by doing a "square" load. 1oz of shot and the same volume of 777 FFg.

Well, what is the meaning behind the dram equivalent?

I am thinking of moving upto 100gr vol of FFg and using 1 1/8th oz of #8 shot.

1) will the magtech brass hulls handle it?
2) what would the dram equiv be for this?

I use Federal 155 magnum pistol primers for the BP loads.

If there is a better formula, or setup, I am all ears.

[Cuts Crooked]

Right off the top of my head, I can't remember what exact amount of a  dram is. But A dram is a measurement of weight of black powder. The phrase "dram equivalent" means that a SMOKELESS load gives the same velocity as a given amount of black powder.

AH! I found it! On page 665 of my 1996 copy of Dixie Gun Works catalogue it says that a dram = 27.34 grains. So a 100 grain powder charge contains 3.657 drams of black powder.  So a 3 dram load works out to about 80 grains of BP!

Remember "dram equivalent" is not a measure of BP, it just means a smokeless load that is equal to a given BP load.

As to your brass hull handling it: I don't see why not but I imagine it will be difficult to get alla that powder and shot into the hull along with the card & cushion wads. But then I've never used brass hulls so don't take my word on that. I've crammed 85 grains & 1 1/8 oz of shot into AA hulls but the powder had to be severely compressed to do so.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

It ougta work jus' fine, Dakota.  You might have to look for a way to resize those cases, however.  I use the "square load" myself - 1 oz. FFg or FFFg with 1 oz #6 or #8 shot.  I have only noticed a tiny bit of case expansion, and that was only after the 1st firing.  However, the 3 1/2 + dram equivalent loads yer plannin' may expand those cases a bit more.  I've heard of shooters who have access to a lathe and having a .795" + .001" beveled hole cut in a sheet of 1/4" to 1/2" brass, steel or other suitable metal.  Then they force the cases thru it and Voila!  They're sized.  I think Lee USED to make sizer for 12 and 20 ga. with their famous hand-loading sets, and PERHAPS RCBS sells a sizing die to go along with their 12 ga shellholder that they have but don't normally list in their product catalogs.  I sure don't know 'bout the sizing dies, however, but the small plate (3" X 5" or so)  does the job.

[TAkaho kid]

A Dram =27.34 grains. I good website for this is:http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Do folks have better luck with 777 or GOEX for BP shells?

I had a couple of shells where the 777 didn't go "bang", but acted more like a "woof" and it was like the shot was thrown at the steel...

Not sure if this is a primer issue or a powder issue...

[Cuts Crooked]

Never tried 777. The only things I've ever stuffed in shells are real BP or pyrodex. Never had a problem with either of them.

[litl rooster]

Is the "square load" enuff to knock down the steel? Recoil hasn't been an issue with smokeless 1 1/8 loads. Since BP is new to me I have some question, and was happy to stumble across this. Is Goex worth the extra pennies?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Where I've shot, the knockdowns have gone down with any "square" load I've made using 7/8, 1, or 1 1/8 oz. loads.  We don't have a lot of knockdowns, but there ARE some heavy swingers and they move nicely.

[Dick Dastardly]

I  shoot three different 311 SxS scatterguns depending on my mood of the moment.  All three get the same charge of powder and shot via the same charge bar.  I have a 20ga, 16ga, and 12ga.  My CAS load is 15/16 oz of fine shot and the same VOLUME of powder.  I once weighed the powder and it comes out to 62.5 grains of FFg Holy Black.  I use a slightly different wad column to make the column height come out right for a good tight roll crimp.

The 20ga is a death ray.  A good hit has never left a popper standing.  The 16ga has the best ballanced pattern and is my prefered gun cuz it's what I keep havin' to load more shells for.  The 12ga is a sawed off, slicked up race gun.  It loads and unloads fast, but the pattern is so wide that if any knockdowns are presented in a stage, I use one of the other two.

So, I'd say your load will take down the poppers with a well centered hit.  As for 777, it's too expensive for my scatterguns.  I shoot the least expensive BP I can get my hands on.  Since I've been soaking my fiber under shot wads in hot lube, my cleanup has been as easy as my rifle and pistols.

Hope that helps.

DD-DLoS

[litl rooster]

Thanks Pards

[Grizzle Bear]

I've been using the Magtech brass shells, and loading 90 grains of FFg, a lubed fiber wad, 1 oz of #6 or #8 shot, and a 10 gauge card to seal it with.  Takes anything down, as is fast enough to get clay birds.  Although I have the RCBS shotgun dies, I have never had to resize one of the cases.

And DD, just dip those fiber wads in the melted lube.  Soaking them increases recoil substantially!

Grizzle Bear

 

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Griz,

They do buck a bit, but the lube seems to squish out on the way down the tube and coats the insides with hot lube.  Keeps 'em easy to clean up.  I think yer rite tho.  Anything that adds to the payload and seals up the hot gas will make 'em jump some more.

Yer dip idea would be better if recoil was a concern, but for me it's not.  I'm the guy that looses too much clock emptyin' and reloadin' my scatterguns.  If I cud do that quicker I cud move up into the top third of the pack. .

DD-DLoS

[Arcey]

Y'all make me feel like the loadin' hack I am........

AA shells.  Dipper of 2f.  Dipper of grits.  Circle Fly nitro card.  Healthy squirt of Crisco from a Cajun Injector syringe.  Dipper full of shot.  Crimp.

Barrels are nice 'n greeeezy all the way to the muzzles.  KDs fall over.  Did have some trouble takin' the plates off a Texas Star with the IC bored left barrel back in August.  I got a cure for that next time.

..

[BlaiseNSaddles]

I have been loading my MagTech shells with Triple 7.  Works just fine for me. 
As far as knockdowns go though I put in Triple 7, the ntiro card hard card - compress well and then a Winchester AA red cup to hold the shot. then an overcard glued in place.

The short barreled Rossi 12g coachgun would only wiggle the targets with the normal loading (fiber cushion no shot cup).  The cup seems to help keep the pattern a little denser.

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, open bore scatterguns do benefit from a plastic shot cup.  I hate 'em, but if ya need a tight pattern for a fussy knockdown, It'll get the job done.

All that said, I do prefer all "natural",  (don't I sound like a liberal?) wads with my Holy Black shot shells.  They seem to hold great patterns in the old guns and they just do NOT melt plastic all the way up the tubes.

Probably putting the Nitro card wad under the red wad does keep the melting to a minimum.  Now, my thinkn' kap comes on and the dang idea lite lites up and here goes trouble.. . . . . . .   I think Ballistic Products makes a shot cup for steel shot that has NO cushion.  This rig might be just rite for pards with open bore guns (sawed off tubes) that would like tighter patterns.  I'll look into it and report back.

DD-DLoS

[Lars]

Doc Evie,

Those heavy, one-peice plastic wads intended for use with steelshot, those having no cushining section, just a big, deep shotcup, have been used for at least years my some folks to get decent patterns from Stoeger coach guns. That information has been posted many, many times on the SASS Wire. Hellgate may have been the first to do so. Winchester red AA wads have always done well in the few butchered doubles I have seen them used in. The red AA wads do leave lots and lots of plastic with Goex, less but still too much with Pyrodex. Never tried any plastic wads with 777 FFG but, it is lots easier on AA and RST plastic hulls than Goex.

Lars

[Dai.S.Loe]

Started off loading my 12 guage shells with Pyrodex , 60gns, cheap white plastic wads , 1 oz of shot.

Left lots of melted plastic up the barrels of my Baikel SxS Hamerless.

SInce changed to 65 gns (by vol) of Chinese BP (Thundershot) 2f, Winchester AA red wads, 1 1/8 oz of shot.

Now all I get is BP fouling up the barrel. No plastic.

Never failed to take a KD target with authority. Even been known to take a few clays with this load.

AS an aside. I have been told that the older Baikel shotguns were made for Russian shells that didnt have he plastic wads in them just over powder and shot cards.

I dont know how true this is but my loads have a very tight pattern to them. On a standard sized popper here at about 15 yards I get a pattern spread of about 12".

Dai

[Driftwood Johnson]

There are 16 drams in an ounce, and 16 ounces in a pound. It's that simple. There are 7000 grains in a pound, you can do the math. Now if somebody can remind me how may firkins there are in a barrel, I'll be happy.

Dram equivalency is a term that came into vogue with the introduction of Smokeless powder. It was a way to determine the velocity of a given charge of shot in reference to the old Black Powder charges, when using Smokeless Powder. For instance a 2 3/4 dram equivalent powder charge should make 1 1/8 ounces of shot move out at 1145 fps. So if 17.5 grains of NoSmoke #1 throws 1 1/8 ounces at 1145 fps, that is a 2 3/4 dram equivalent load. But a 2 3/4 dram equivalent charge will move 1 ounce of shot faster than that. I don't remember how much. As Black Powder fades from the collective memory, we are seeing dram equivallency called out on commercial shotshell boxes less and less. These days they usually say things like 'Light Target Load'.

For what it's worth, I gave up worrying about Square Loads for CAS. The problem with not using square loads comes when you use too much powder for a given weight of shot. That's when you start blowing holes in your patterns. Not necessarily true with a light charge of powder and a heavy load of shot. I like a heavy charge of shot, plus I'm lazy. I'm so lazy that I don't want to change out the 1 1/8 ounce charge bar on my old MEC Jr. So I always throw 1 1/8 ounces of #8. Now to build a square load with that much shot I would have to add A LOT of powder. I forget how much, but it would be a lot. But lazyness comes to my rescue again, since the largest dipper in my Lee set is 4.3CC. I don't have the numbers handy right now, but I know that 4.3CC is way less than 2 3/4 drams. In fact, I think it's somewhere between 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 drams. Being lazy, and not wanting to be a double dipper, I dump that puny 4.3CC charge into all my shotgun shells.

They take down any knockdown I aim them at, as long as I do my job. They boom and smoke to beat the band, but with just around 65 grains or so of powder they don't punish the shoulder much. You can usually do just as well lobbing a bowling ball at something as you can firing a baseball.

[Dai.S.Loe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogshead

For you Driftwood.

English measurements.

Dai

Btw

When I ran a pub in the UK I sold real Ale. In my cellar I kept "firkin" Kilderkins" berrels and hogsheads.

[Dick Dastardly]

However ya measure it, the end result is what's desired.  So, when loading, take notes.  When shooting, take notes.  Shoot some paper and count pellets.  Take more notes.  Sooner or later all those notes will provide some answers.  The answers will be valid for your gun.  They may, or may not, work in the next pards' gun.

After all this measurin' I'm goin' metric.  Since I still have all ten of my digits, stayin' with units of ten is easiest for me.

DD-DLoS