Substitutes

[Tascosa Joe]

This is sort of in the dumb question arena.  I have been shooting BP since the mid '70s but the only substitute I have used is Pyrodex, and I after I figured out you could not make a flint lock go bang with it, I never used it again.  How much grunge do powders like Triple 7 and APP produce?

[River City John]

More grunge with Triple 7 than APP.

[Johnson Barr]

Triple 7 is designed for modern in-line muzzle loading rifles, the 209 primer type. Very hot in percussion pistols and cartridge conversions. APP comes closer for the same grain by volume charges of real black. Goex Pinnacle was produced by APP, the difference was that the Goex product was dyed black to more closely replicate real BP color. It is no longer available. The APP product is a grayish color. I still have a goodly store of the Goex that still shoots well and cleans up with ammonia based products like Windex and such cleaners. Way less corrosive  than the Pyrodex-rust-your-gun-crap!   

[Cliff Fendley]

APP really isn't bad in the grunge department. Triple 7 leaves a hard crusty stuff that is sort of hard to clean. I've only used the later in modern inline muzzle loaders. I shot quite a bit of APP a few years back because I got some essentially free and found I liked it far better than other subs. I remember feeling like I thought the APP was not as powerful as Pyrodex or real BP. That said I did not crony any loads, my assumption was merely based on recoil of the guns and the report on steel targets. Plenty fine for CAS.

[Abilene]

APP definitely leaves less fouling in the bore than BP.  I have used some 777 in .38's for rifle some years back because it was easy to find locally.  777 in a .38 seemed to recoil about the same as FFFg BP in a .357 in that rifle.  APP is the most popular sub for good reason.  But hardly any stores carry it so usually you will have to mail order, then you get into hazmat, etc.  Natchez is carrying Shooter's World Multi-Black (made by APP for Shooter's World).  I finally ran out of the can of APP that I opened in 2013  so I added a few cans of Multi-Black to my Natchez order when I was ordering primers and other powder.

[Tascosa Joe]

Thanks for the info.

[Coffinmaker]

  Joe   

I'm just kinda sorta Piling On here.  Ya know, "Plays Well with Others" sort of thing.  I shoot a lot of APP.  Seriously a LOT of APP.  Easiest clean-up of any of the Propellants.  There are several other good points though.  APP requires no Lube.  At'z right.  No Lubes.  None. Nada. Zero. Zilch.  You can shoot Nudie Bullets all day.  If you happen to find you have a goodly pile of Smokeless Lubed bullets, just go shoot 'em.  APP don't care if there is Crayon Lube.  Great stuff.

People are Still Contagious.  Avoid 'em

[Dave T]

I have a S&W 2000 Schofield. Looks pretty but will not shoot black powder. Cylinder locks up so solidly after 4 shots it can't be turned by hand, and I'm shooting Big Lube bullets. I had some Black MZ (Hodgdon's version of APP) left over from an experiment with 45 Colt and tried it in the Schofield. Got through 25 rounds without having to clean. When the can of Black MZ runs out I'll be buying APP from somewhere...or I will sell the Schofield.

Dave

[Coffinmaker]

  Dave T 

I be your Huckleberry you betcha.  Black MZ is NOT dead.  Shooters World is now marketing Shooters World Multi Black. Natchez is carrying it.  Shooters World Multi Black is same same as Black MZ, made for Shooters World by the great folks at APP.  You can also get both from Scarlett at "Bullets bye Scarlett."  Rejoice amigo.  All is not lost.  Hang on to your Smitty.

People are Contagious.  Avoid 'em

[Tascosa Joe]

I really appreciate the info.  An outfit near here has a Cimarron S&W American with an 8" barrel, my main reason for asking was if APP would run in that gun.  From all I gather the short answer is no with a very dim maybe.    Also I am thinking about getting some since I am about out of GOEX.  Anyway thanks to all yall.

[Tascosa Joe]

I guess I have one more question, do most of you run APP thru a standard powder measure on a progressive?  I know Coffin uses a Dillion, I have a Hornady A&P, that I have adapted a Hornady BP measure to work.  I also made a shell plate for it IOT reload .45 Schofield. 

[River City John]

APP kept hanging up in my Lee powder dispenser, so I switched to hand dipped. This being 2FFG, though, in .38spcl cartridge.

[Abilene]

T.J., the APP of old had a lot of fines and dust, which is hygroscopic, so there were stories of it gumming up and/or rusting powder measures if not cleaned out well after reloading.  I mostly dipped it, though I have run 3F APP through a Dillon powder measure with no problems.  I am told that APP, and the subs made by them for other companies, are much better these days about the dust.  I'm sure Coffinmaker can verify that.

[Roosterman]

I have a S&W 2000 Schofield. Looks pretty but will not shoot black powder. Cylinder locks up so solidly after 4 shots it can't be turned by hand, and I'm shooting Big Lube bullets. I had some Black MZ (Hodgdon's version of APP) left over from an experiment with 45 Colt and tried it in the Schofield. Got through 25 rounds without having to clean. When the can of Black MZ runs out I'll be buying APP from somewhere...or I will sell the Schofield.

Dave

That gun will shoot real BP. Just lube over the cylinder ends like you do a cap and ball revolver. You can shoot all day. Use crisco or wonderlube.

[Lite Colonel]

I really like APP.  I use it in loading .45 Colt (35 grains 3Fg APP & 250 grain bullet) and making .36 paper cartridges.  I use it in my .45 Schofield in GAF competition.  Have fired 25 rounds of 45 Colt in it with no issues with the action or accuracy.  I also shoot the .45 Colt APP cartridges in my 1860 Henry with no issues, and shoots good.  I load 45-70 rounds for my 1873 Trapdoor Carbine to shoot in GAF and works great (40 grains 3Fg APP, 30 grains corn meal, 300 grain bullet).

[Drydock]

I use a lot of 2f 777 in my Cartridge guns.  Easily available, meters well thru my Lee Perfect powder measure.  I do not get the hard fouling some have experienced, I think because I make sure I do NOT compress this powder, just load a BP lubed bullet with no air space.  This is significantly less powder by weight than black, but about the same power level.  It runs well in both my Uberti Schofields and my Russian.  It also runs well in my H&R Trapdoor, which barrel does not work well with regular BP.  I have Real Black for my long range rifles, but use 777 in most everything else, simply because I can get it, and it works well for me.

[Tascosa Joe]

I chumped off and bought the Uberti S&W American even if it was a .45 instead of a .44 Russian.  I learned a couple things, It will run Shooters Choice Multi Black for about 25 rounds without cleaning.  The pistol is much heavier than an Open Top.  With my bad shoulders and hands I probably will not shoot it much.

[ira scott]

It says on the label of Shooters Choice Multi Black that it is manufactured by American Pioneer Powder.

(If you hadn't already noticed Joe) B.N. Scotty

[wildman1]

APP really isn't bad in the grunge department. Triple 7 leaves a hard crusty stuff that is sort of hard to clean. I've only used the later in modern inline muzzle loaders. I shot quite a bit of APP a few years back because I got some essentially free and found I liked it far better than other subs. I remember feeling like I thought the APP was not as powerful as Pyrodex or real BP. That said I did not crony any loads, my assumption was merely based on recoil of the guns and the report on steel targets. Plenty fine for CAS.

I have chronographed loads in a 1911 with both Shooters world black and Old Eynsford 3f. The Shooters world chronographed at 750 to 770 fps and the old eynsford run a little over 650. There was much less felt recoil for the BP and the shooters world than a comparable load of smokiless.
wM1

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Tascosa Joe,

I've been using Triple 7 in my front loading long guns for years as one needed to drive 60 miles to get real black powder.
I have noticed a couple things with it,
1. I used to snap a couple caps, then pour in about 4 grains of 4-F BP and snap another. When I tried this with Triple 7, i noticed a lot of un-burned powder in the barrel.
2. In my brothers Lyman Great Plains Rifle, it often didn't ignite on the first cap, we started dumping 4 grains of 4-F below the Triple 7 and no more issues.

In my Cartridge Conversion Revolvers I've been using Black MZ, no need for bullet lube. I did purchase a case from Sportsman's Warehouse before they ran out.
It was made by American Pioneer Powder, who now makes Shooters World Multi-Purpose Black.

AntiqueSledMan.