Help identifying this stamp/embossing wheel

BrushyCreekDouglas · August 15, 2022, 08:29:10 AM

Good morning guys!

My name is Ethan, I'm new to the forum though I've been a frequent reader for years now. I'm 24 and have just started a gun-leather side gig. My goal is to recreate rigs from the 19th and early 20th century using as many patterns, tools, and techniques as possible from the period. One border pattern I'm trying to replicate is one often seen on FA Meanea rigs, such as the one pictured below that belonged to Bat Masterson. I'm unsure whether it's a stamp or an embossing wheel, though I'm leaning towards the latter.

My question is do any of you know if this pattern tool is still made? If so, could someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks a million and God bless,

Marshal Will Wingam · August 15, 2022, 09:48:10 AM

Welcome to the forum. I found the auction site and took a close look at the border work.

It looks like Meanea did the three beads first then ran an embossing wheel along the outside of those. Whether he used an embossing wheel for the beads or did them by hand I couldn't tell. You could make the beads by hand but finding an exact match for that embossing wheel might be a bit of a challenge.

I did find this embossing wheel which is similar but not quite as spread out looking. Not pressing the wheel into the leather as hard as they did would help but it's not an exact match.

I do have to say, that'a a fine rig. A nice historical piece. A Meanea, too. If you get to making one like that, please share some photos with us.

BrushyCreekDouglas · August 15, 2022, 09:55:10 AM

Quote from: Marshal Will Wingam on August 15, 2022, 09:48:10 AM
I found the auction site and took a close look at the border work.

It looks like Meanea did the three beads first then ran an embossing wheel along the outside of those. Whether he used an embossing wheel for the beads or did them by hand I couldn't tell. You could make the beads by hand but finding an exact match for that embossing wheel might be a bit of a challenge.

I did find this embossing wheel which is similar but not quite as spread out looking. Not pressing the wheel into the leather as hard as they did would help but it's not an exact match.

I do have to say, that'a a fine rig. A nice historical piece. A Meanea, too. If you get to making one like that, please share some photos with us.

Yes sir I definitely plan on making that one eventually. Bat is a favorite of mine.

I looked all over Springfield's site and couldn't find that specific one. Might be a bit of a challenge.

Thanks for the insight and reply!

Marshal Will Wingam · August 15, 2022, 10:01:51 AM

Quote from: BrushyCreekDouglas on August 15, 2022, 09:55:10 AM
Yes sir I definitely plan on making that one eventually. Bat is a favorite of mine.

I looked all over Springfield's site and couldn't find that specific one. Might be a bit of a challenge.

Thanks for the insight and reply!

You might be able to make a wavy roller with files then add the dots to the border by hand.

Marshal Will Wingam · August 15, 2022, 10:04:24 AM

Here's a close-up of the border in case anyone else wants to take a look without having to find the auction site.

Rube Burrows · August 15, 2022, 03:07:53 PM

That's a beautiful rig and I think Marshal has pointed you in the right direction.

Buck Stinson · August 15, 2022, 05:12:53 PM

Back in the early 80's, I ordered these tools and many others from McMillen Tool Company in Sunrise Beach, Missouri. They established business in Kansas City back in 1898 and produce some of the finest leather tools in the business. As far as I know, they are still in business. Their prices are quite high, but so is the quality. The delivery time on most items is long. You can only reach them by phone or mail. This is the last phone number I have (573)374-7880. Best thing to do is call and ask if they still put out a catalog. The last one I have is #77, which I believe was around 2012. I also have an awesome original McMillen catalog from around 1910. Hope this will help.

Cliff Fendley · August 15, 2022, 09:44:31 PM

I always make those borders using a hand CS Osborne embossing wheel. It's very close to the shape and size on some original FA Meanea and Al Furstnow pieces in my collection. I don't know if they still make those or not.

BrushyCreekDouglas · August 15, 2022, 10:07:07 PM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on August 15, 2022, 09:44:31 PM
I always make those borders using a hand CS Osborne embossing wheel. It's very close to the shape and size on some original FA Meanea and Al Furstnow pieces in my collection. I don't know if they still make those or not.

Do you have any idea of the model numbers?

Thanks for all the info. This forum is truly a treasure.

Cliff Fendley · August 17, 2022, 04:11:58 PM

Quote from: BrushyCreekDouglas on August 15, 2022, 10:07:07 PM
Do you have any idea of the model numbers?

Thanks for all the info. This forum is truly a treasure.

No sorry I don't. I don't know if they are still made any more.

Buck Stinson · August 21, 2022, 09:48:44 AM

I don't think Osborne makes that exact embossing wheel. In fact, I'm not sure they ever did. They went into business in 1826 and I don't find it listed in my early catalog #2. It is not listed in catalog #71 (1947) either. They do make one similar (#456-20) but NOT the same. Many old saddle shops used McMilllen embossing rolls in various sizes, including the #9, which is the one Meanea used most often on his leather gear. The #9 is exactly the same size as the one used on the Meanea holster in your photo. At the time I bought one, I think it was around $10.00 for the roll die and $18.00 for the carriage.

BrushyCreekDouglas · August 25, 2022, 09:41:57 PM

Quote from: Buck Stinson on August 21, 2022, 09:48:44 AM
I don't think Osborne makes that exact embossing wheel. In fact, I'm not sure they ever did. They went into business in 1826 and I don't find it listed in my early catalog #2. It is not listed in catalog #71 (1947) either. They do make one similar (#456-20) but NOT the same. Many old saddle shops used McMilllen embossing rolls in various sizes, including the #9, which is the one Meanea used most often on his leather gear. The #9 is exactly the same size as the one used on the Meanea holster in your photo. At the time I bought one, I think it was around $10.00 for the roll die and $18.00 for the carriage.

Is McMillen still in business? Thanks for the info!

Buck Stinson · August 29, 2022, 09:01:18 AM

Sorry for the delay. Been gone for several days. I posted McMillen's number in a previous post. (573)374-7880 Again, I'm not sure how current this is, but I believe they are still in business. Let us know what you find out.

Cliff Fendley · August 29, 2022, 08:58:47 PM

Quote from: Marshal Will Wingam on August 15, 2022, 10:04:24 AM
Here's a close-up of the border in case anyone else wants to take a look without having to find the auction site.

That same border is on some original FA Meanea pieces I have.

I was almost certain the wheel I usually use was made by CS Osborne and its impression is about exact in size and dot spacing, etc, to the original pieces. Found it on an ebay auction a few years back. I could be wrong on the maker because Buck is more of an expert than I.

I also have one of the more recent Osborne wheels that Buck mentioned above. It is also about the correct size but was rough around the edges so to speak and didn't make a good deep clean impression although a few minutes with a file and some patients and it cleaned up and works fine. I still prefer the old wheel better but really can't tell the difference after the fact if one or the other is used. If there is a difference in the size and shape of the impression compared to the original FA Meanea pieces you are hard pressed to measure it out and tell the difference.

The sketch of the newer 456-20 CS Osborne wheel looks as if there are two lines but it is really only a single line. Or at least on the one I bought a few years ago is. The issue is the wheel had edges that make an ugly impression and you have to file all that away so the single line and dots are all that makes an impression.

All that said I'm also curious to check with McMillian myself and get one of those if still possible to compare.

I don't know how to post pictures anymore or I'd try and get a close up picture of the one I modified.

Buck Stinson · August 30, 2022, 10:03:56 AM

Cliff,
I know what you mean about the rough edges on the Osborne embossing wheels. I have several of them and most all have had to be re-worked in order to make a clean impression. I just tried to contact McMillen and got an answering machine, so it sounds like they are still in business. I should say that most of the time I've called in the past, I have to leave a message. They have always been good about returning calls. Hope this will help.

Cliff Fendley · August 30, 2022, 03:58:25 PM

Quote from: Buck Stinson on August 30, 2022, 10:03:56 AM
Cliff,
I know what you mean about the rough edges on the Osborne embossing wheels. I have several of them and most all have had to be re-worked in order to make a clean impression. I just tried to contact McMillen and got an answering machine, so it sounds like they are still in business. I should say that most of the time I've called in the past, I have to leave a message. They have always been good about returning calls. Hope this will help.

Sounds good Buck, if they are still able to do them I'd like to get a new one of those wheels from them. Maybe the older one I have is a McMillian but I'd like to compare and since I use it quite a bit it couldn't hurt to have another extra.