Possible acquisition

Rube Burrows · June 28, 2022, 09:08:57 AM

Quote from: middletownbob on June 28, 2022, 09:01:19 AM
if you guys are looking to buy another conversion, Turnbull Restorations has a USFA '51 Navy on their used gun inventory for only four thousands dollars! inflation? Bob

Its a beauty and I am assuming that it sports real ivory handle but sheesh. It's a pretty penny.

Tuolumne Lawman · June 28, 2022, 09:24:08 AM

The cylinder and frame are stepped like a 1860 percussion. The pictures just don't show it well. I had a pair of the ASM 1860, and they were not stepped like these. Then there is the hand stamped serial numbers.

Tuolumne Lawman · June 28, 2022, 10:59:44 AM

From Walt Kirst:

"Bernie,
I'm not familiar with John Gren's work but I can definately say they aren't the work of Jay or Bob. The dead giveaway is the threaded end cap on the ejector housing and the long low angle slot in the housing They both used a solid cylindrical end and a sharper angle slot, like the original Colt.

Bob Millington was an excellent engraver and Strite didn't engrave, but the engraving could have been done after.
Nice find, I dont think anyone is making historical Richard's 1st any longer.

Regards,
Walt "

My response:

"Thanks, I don't think it was Kenny, as I believe he marked his. That leaves John Gren, or maybe. someone else. Tghere was a guy named Cramer or something like that that did them in the 1990s. The engraving was done by Frank "Texas Jack" Lehman in the 90s."

DeaconKC · June 28, 2022, 11:33:20 AM

A spectacular pair!

Abilene · June 28, 2022, 11:38:44 AM

Well, that is certainly interesting. Another oddness is that I am only aware of Cimarron having imported cartridge guns from ASM, not percussion. But the BIG question, which remains to be answered, is which hand gets Truth and which hand gets Justice? I mean, you WILL be shooting them gunfighter, right?

Major 2 · June 28, 2022, 11:44:20 AM

Perhaps Dave Anderson ? ASM's were his go to $:-\$

Tuolumne Lawman · June 28, 2022, 12:58:50 PM

Could be Anderson. He was the fifth guy I was trying to think of (instead of Cramer...LOL). IIRC, he was based here in California.

As much as I would like to do gunfighter, since a stroke I had 4 or so years ago, while I am 95% recovered, I don't have that dexterity in my left hand.

Major 2 · June 28, 2022, 01:24:34 PM

Anderson was a MASTER with ASM's, he imported the parts and built some beauties.

I had one that he assembled for USPFA and was shown a "Shot" in 1993.

I had traded for it, and later sold it for....

well ! lets say I did not get hurt

Tuolumne Lawman · June 28, 2022, 07:25:15 PM

After some research in Adlers book on conversions old and current I really believe it is an Anderson. He sold lots to the SASS crowd here in California in the 1990s before ASM shut down his supply of parts.

Tuolumne Lawman · June 28, 2022, 10:47:15 PM

Anderson, I am sure. Look at this one of his River Junction sold. Same threaded end of ejector;

https://www.riverjunction.com/5424

Major 2 · June 29, 2022, 06:39:56 AM

There you go

Dave did nice work with ASM's

At one time I had decided I'd like to have one example of each of the then available custom makers.
I was nearly there, the only one I never obtained was John Gren..

I had the afore mentioned "Anderson USPFA Shot Show prototype" (ASM) that gun was used extensively in NCOWS matches. Sadly, it's whereabouts now unknown the owner passed in 2021.

My Millington example was a thin plate Remington on a Euroarms donor,
I also had your first Uberti thick Plate Remy conversion, do you recall that trade? I sold both of those.

The Strite Navy conversion I had was from his Eagle Pass days before he moved and teamed with Walt Kirst in Texas. I traded it away after I got over the notion of the collection.

I still have the Kenny Howell 1st Model Richards
and my Gary Barnes Navy conversion.

I never heard of "Cramer" except on Jerry Steinfeld

Coffinmaker · June 29, 2022, 07:44:40 AM

Hey TL

I'm in with The Major. Dave Anderson was "American Frontier Firearms." Built some really top notch conversions with ASM parts. Actually, if I remember correctly, it wasn't ASM that shut him down. It was his "X" Real nasty divorce.

I actually wanted a pair of his guns when I was deep into ASM conversions. At one time I had 11. Nine of them were actually my "parts stash" to keep the best pair running. They were, without doubt, the MOST ACCURATE .38s I ever owned. Either of my "Go-To" pair would "clover leaf" five rounds off a rest.

People are Still Contagious. Avoid Them

Abilene · June 29, 2022, 10:08:59 AM

Remember the ammo that Dave came up with? I think it was basically 44 Russian with a 44 Colt rim. Wonder how much of that ever got made.

Tuolumne Lawman · June 29, 2022, 08:10:31 PM

Well, very interesting. Dave Anderson was actually the first to attempt to produce conversions in limited small production runs.. He used ASM 1860s as the host guns, and eventually contracted to ASM to produce stepped 1860 cartridge cylinders and some other parts. This was before ASM started to produce Type I conversions of their own. around 2000.

I discovered that Truth and Justice's cylinders are NOT converted percussion cylinders! They are beefier, and actually almost the same diameter as Uberti's cartridge conversion's cylinders. When ASM started producing conversions, they used the shortcut of not having stepped cylinders or frames. Anderson, however, had ASM make stepped 1860 cartridge cylinders, and had the corresponding step on the frame. As I have said already, truth and Justice have have these stepped cylinders.

Tuolumne Lawman · July 04, 2022, 09:45:33 AM

Located one ASM 1860 grip on ebay. Need to find one more to replace the Bubba'ed grips. Checked, and Uberti 1860 grips are really close, so I may just pick up a used 1860 Uberti grip and fit it until I find another ASM grip.

Major 2 · July 04, 2022, 10:09:41 AM

ASM never produced the Type I conversion, in that the backing plate was not shrouded.

They did more of a Type 2 backing plate with an 1860 grip, & the dia. of the ejector rod was about 3/32
(undersize) on the 36 Cal gun. (that was corrected to some extent on the 44 Calibers)
If one put a 51 or 61 grip on the 36 Caliber, it made reasonable copy of a 61. However, to my knowledge there were no original 1861 Richard's, as the Richard & Mason were then in production.

Dave Anderson did produce Type 1's as Adler's book shows and they were the BOMB.
ASM though AFF provided his raw parts. There also a very fine SAA produced, this raised the notice & ire of COLT and lawsuit was imposed. This and Dave's personal domestic issue was the death nell for American Frontier Firearms.

Tuolumne Lawman · July 04, 2022, 10:53:06 AM

From my research, the two dead giveaways that these are Anderson guns are: The shallow step on the cylinder, which is larger than percussion cylinders and actually purpose built by ASM as a cartridge revolver specifically for Anderson, and the threaded breech end of the ejector rod. If you look at pictures of Anderson guns, ALL have these features.

The low hand stamped serial number, and lack of markings on the barrels, show they are early samples.

Quick Draw McGraw · July 04, 2022, 12:36:54 PM

Beautiful !

Major 2 · July 04, 2022, 01:14:13 PM

I figured they were Anderson's work; I have no doubt.
They are a fine pair

Abilene · July 04, 2022, 01:41:20 PM

Quote from: Major 2 on July 04, 2022, 10:09:41 AM
...If one put a 51 or 61 grip on the 36 Caliber, it made reasonable copy of a 61. However, to my knowledge there were no original 1861 Richard's, as the Richard & Mason were then in production.

Right, but they made ONE 1861 Type 2 Richards, as shown in McDowell's book.

Dave Anderson did produce Type 1's as Adler's book shows and they were the BOMB.
ASM though AFF provided his raw parts. There also a very fine SAA produced, this raised the notice & ire of COLT and lawsuit was imposed. This and Dave's personal domestic issue was the death nell for American Frontier Firearms.

Adler says the sale of ASM to AWA in 2000 was why he lost his parts supply. Probably a combination of things.