#10 or #11?

[Froogal]

I just bought a new percussion revolver. Uberti model 0112 1858 new improved Navy 7 3/8" barrel, .36 caliber.

There is nothing in the instructions pertaining to what size caps will fit the nipples. Surely there has to be a way other than trial and error?

As of now, I have NO caps, and NO balls, but I do have some black powder.

[Professor Marvel]

I will try to find Mako's fine write-up detailing caps, cap sizes, and tube dimensions.

Uberti tubes typically accept #10's, sorta. It depends on which manufacturor...

Slix-Shot, Treso, or "track of the wolf" Stainless Steel nipples
are sized to work with CCI #11,  Remington #10, or RWS 1075 caps.

River City John wrote an article with a photo...
"The illustration first appeared in my article in The Shootist magazine, September/October 2007, p.19.
He subsequently posted it on threads in CAS City and The Frontier Spot."

next is a text article posted by Mako way back when

[Professor Marvel]

Here is a long post  from Mako originally on The Open Range.
I will try to reconstruct any missing bits


snip--------------------------------------------------------------

Cap sizing and the fit to the cones remains the most misunderstood part of percussion firearms usage. Most shooters of single shot muzzleloading rifles and pistols do not agonize over the cap to cone fit the way that percussion revolver shooters do. Even those revolver shooters that do not "agonize," wrestle with understanding why they have problems with ignition, etc.

The locks on single shot rifles and pistols have three traits that make cap fit (except for them falling off) almost irrelevant: they have much more powerful springs, the hammers usually have significant "over-travel" and there is not a concern about cap fragmenting since they are single shots. What I mean by over-travel is that if the cone face did not stop the hammer, the hammer would continue to be driven for some distance by the spring.

One might ask why potential over-travel is important if it never happens. I primarily has to do with the spring loading at the fully cocked point and at the fully down position. While it is true the hammer spring force can be exactly the same on a hammer with a hard stop and one that would continue to travel if not stopped by the face, the tendency for designers and in manufacturing is to start from the down position and then load the spring as it is cocked. Because of this tendency, 90% of the time a hammer with over-travel will have a higher spring loading at the fully down position.

The high force springs and over-travel make high caps (caps not fully seated) in most cases a non-issue, there is sufficient force to drive the caps home and fire the priming compound. Any cap fragmentation, splitting or caps hanging onto the hammer or cone doesn't pose a problem on a single shot. There is no threat from pieces falling into a hammer channel or clogging the action.

The same is not true for percussion revolvers. On the models germane to these conversations the hammer springs are often intentionally manufactured lighter than the original springs the pistols had in the 19th century. The manufacturers have created a problem trying to cater to the average customer's expectations on the amount of force required for cocking. The method of manipulating a percussion revolver and the shooting sports these revolvers are used in have driven the manufacturers to use spring forces on par with the springs they install in their cartridge revolvers. This along with the fact the hammers are stopped by the hammer channel and may not have sufficient velocity or residual hammer force make caps that have not been fully seated a major problem with reliable ignition on revolvers. Cap fragmentation is the bane of revolver shooters, cap fragmentation can be exacerbated by the cone fit or the back blast and it plays havoc with subsequent shots.

I have never seen a complete compilation of data concerning cap sizes as to what the measured sizes mean in terms of cap to cone fit. I have seen a few charts where individuals have measured a few of the commonly available caps, but instead of helping us understand the caps fits, the authors of those charts often draw the wrong conclusions as to what the sizes actually mean. Those charts have been, and are continuing to be used as "evidence" into the lack of "Cap Standardization" instead of helping the reader know which caps to try, or which will work the best for them.

I'm not trying to be overly critical of people who maintain there is no "standard" because there is confusion over the correct cap size to use on pistols and rifles because there isn't a published "Industry Standard" size for caps such as we have for rifle and pistol primers. In trying to understand technology of the 19th and earlier centuries we often make the mistake of trying to apply 20th and 21st century standards and practices. Modern manufacturing processes were in their infancy, interchangeability and standard sizing was still being developed. In most cases there was no standard other than meeting the needs of the customers, whether that was the military or the commercial markets. The military requirements are what drove most of the standardization we have come to expect today. If you review the caps that were available in the mid-19th century you will find they were almost always not labeled not by a universal size (that came later), but by which firearms they were intended to be used on. For example look at these two tins:



Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The cap manufacturers obviously fabricated their caps to fit the tubes of the particular firearms they were intended to be used on. Colt's set the standard for revolver tubes by being the first and also by being the 800 pound gorilla. I have limited data on original Remington cones, but the two I have, though different in length from the original Colt's tubes I have will accept our current #11 caps just as the original Colt's tubes will.

What the posters I mentioned earlier who were trying to prove there is no standardization in modern caps miss is that the manufacture and sizing of caps has changed very little in the last 180 years except for the change in the priming compounds. Based on measurements of commonly available tubes on factory weapons and aftermarket tubes there are common tube geometries that will accept either #10 or #11 Caps (including RWS 1075 caps) today, just as there was in the 1860's. The modern manufacturers today do what Eley and the others did in the 19th century, they make caps to fit the tubes that are available. How they go about it is the subject of this thread.

~Mako

Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 06:56:52 PM by John Boy

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer


Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 03:45:04 PM »

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There are 5 caps in the #10 and #11 range commonly available today. The RWS 1075 seems to be impossible to find these days and appears to have been "replaced" by the RWS 1075 Plus in availability. The "Plus" cap is actually a "magnum" cap but will work for our purposes. In addition to the five is an entry supplied by Hellgate for an RWS #55 cap, these are also called RWS 1055 caps and I will add to the data sets when I locate a package of them I squirreled away somewhere.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

I have now measured:

120 Remington #10 Caps from four distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (two lots provided 2 packages)
120 Remington #11 Caps from five distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (two lots provided 2 packages)
120 CCI #10 Caps from Three distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (3 packages from one lot, 2 from another and 1 from a final lot)
120 CCI #11 Caps from five distinct manufacturing lots, 20 caps from each package (2 packages from 2 lots, and 1 from two other lots)
87 RWS 1075 Caps from one lot
79 RWS 1075Plus Caps from one lot



This is an image from models of the five caps in question, note how all of the caps are arranged to set the height as it would be relative to sitting on the cone face, this will give you some idea of the differences in priming compound thickness between the caps.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

These side by side comparisons of the cross sectioned models will help you understand why some caps appear to be "larger" than others on the exterior, but are in fact nearly the same size internally or actually a bit smaller than another cap that might have an overall shorter outer height.

Construction differences are readily apparent between the three manufacturers. The corrugated features show up as a ribs on the inside of the CCI caps, a ghost image of the corrugation shows through on the Remington caps, but are not measurable. The Remington caps have the four "petals" left on them which is part of the forming process. Actually all three styles of caps have these petals at a point in their forming process. CCI and RWS trim the bottom of the skirt and finish them differently. RWS applies an internal chamfer to the skirt to facilitate loading and CCI breaks the outer edge slightly. Only Remington leaves the skirt as formed, this "as formed" condition often manifests itself with petals of slightly different length on the same cap (look at the photo of the Remington #10 cap as an example of this).

Photos in subsequent posts will show the internal features and differences described above.

The external heights are as follows:

The #10 Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The #11 Caps (note the RWS 1075s are categorized as #11 caps because they fit the same cones as caps marked as #11)

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer
Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 03:53:40 PM »

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The Remington #10 Cap is the longest cap of the bunch. This confuses people because it appears to be the "largest cap," when in fact it is the smallest or tightest fitting cap. The tightness is due to the length of the skirt hitting the taper of the cone further down the body where the diameter is larger.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The two "important" dimensions are the Internal Diameter and the Internal Height. These two dimensions will determine the fit on a cone.

Note the fold seam ("split") that appears at crotch of the petal which is an artifact from the forming operation. You can see also the superficial marking made by the roll tool that made the corrugations; it shows through as a "ghost" image to the interior but is not measurable. The Shiny material on the interior is the sealing compound used over the green paper bursting disk covering the priming compound.

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 04:00:26 PM »

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The CCI #10 Cap fits the same cones as the much longer Remington cap. The internal diameter is the smallest of the five caps and hits the tapered cone at roughly the same height as all of the other caps except for the Remington #10. The smaller diameter makes the tighter fit on this cap.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The two "important" dimensions are the Internal Diameter and the Internal Height. These two dimensions will determine the fit on a cone.

The ribbing actually shows through on the interior walls. There is sealant from the bursting disk shows on the walls with a distinct line from the process. The yellow colored Bursting Disk covering the priming compound appears to be a fiber and binder mixture instead of a paper disk.

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 04:05:22 PM »

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The Remington #11 Cap has the same internal I.D.s as the Remington #10. The difference is in the skirt length (Internal Height). The shorter skirt doesn't extend as far down the taper of the cone and will fit on a larger diameter cone. Compare the internal height and the I.D. between the three #11 style caps and they are very similar. The Remington appears to be "smaller" than the other two #11 caps because it has a shorter exterior height; the difference is in the priming compound thickness.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The Remington #11 cap shares the same green paper Bursting Disk with the #10 version. It also shows residual sealant on the inside. The close up photo shows the cracks at the petal crotch that often pass entirely through from the exterior to the interior.

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 04:10:11 PM »

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The CCI #11 Caps are very similar to the CCI #10 caps with the exception of the Internal Diameter. The I.D.s and internal height are very similar between all three manufacturers.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The ribbing shows through on the interior walls. There is sealant from the bursting disk shows on the walls with a distinct line from the process. The reddish brown colored Bursting Disk covering the priming compound appears to be a fiber and binder mixture instead of a paper disk.

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 04:15:49 PM »

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The RWS 1075 Cap is actually a #11 size cap (which means it will fit on cones that caps labeled as #11 will also fit).

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The cap has a tan fibrous bursting disk and it it sealed with a clear green sealer. The interior edge of the bottom of the skirt has been chamfered and this creates a "saw tooth" pattern along the bottom edge.

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 04:22:09 PM »

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Some of the Factory tubes have cones that are smaller in diameter and #10 caps fit snuggly on them while #11 caps will fall off (unless pinched). I do not recommend pinching except in extreme circumstances, pinching can create its own set of problems.

This illustration depicts the two contact points for the two different #10 caps when they are fully seated on the cone.

Uberti Tube
Sectiond Caps
Caps on Cones

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 04:26:17 PM »

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Treso Cones are designed for #11 caps, the model is derived from measurements taken from 4 sets of factory fresh tubes (24 tubes).
TresoTube
SectionedCaps CapsonTresoTubes

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer
Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 04:33:22 PM »

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Poor Cap fit: There are three kinds of poor cap fit. The kind that causes the most grief are caps fitting too tightly on the cones. This causes high caps and inconsistent ignition. This is an example of such a condition, in this case a CCI #10 cap has been placed on the cone and pressed down until it has exactly the same amount of interference a #11 Cap would have on the cone (roughly .003"). As you can see the cap sights proud and there is .047" of clearance between the priming compound and the cone face.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Some shooters will maintain they have no problems with "undersize" caps; they use a pushing stick and force a tight fitting cap down. This is commonly done, but it often results in caps that are split before firing and they may even become loose at that point. If the cap is not fully seated it often will not fire on the first hammer strike because the force of the hammer blow is used to seat the cap further onto the cone instead of crushing the priming compound between the hammer (top of the cap) and the face of the cone.
The second condition is a large cap on a small cone. Some factory cones are better suited to #10 caps; if you "seat" a #11 cap on those cones you will not get a fit that will keep the cap in place. Often the cap will fall free or back off under recoil from the previous chamber and by the time it reaches alignment for firing it is not seated. Once again you may get a "soft" hit as the hammer attempts to drive it home.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

The third condition is created by shooters using the technique of "pinching" caps to create a friction fit between the oversize cap and the cone.
Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Pinching caps creates a path for hot gases coming back through the flash hole on the chamber being fired to find a path directly to the priming compound. When Samuel Colt was selling his pistols he was advertizing them as being "water proof." We all know they weren't "water proof" but they were intended to be sealed at the rear. He struggled with chain fires and rear "flash-overs" for years. He finally realized what was happening and changed his enclosed breach design and buried the tubes into the rear of the cylinder. Why would we "unlearn" what they used to know?

Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)
Mako
Free Grazer

Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 01:25:29 PM »

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Pinched caps continued:

A reader sent me a message and asked if the castellations on the rear of the cylinders wouldn't prevent chain fires from the rear if a cap was in place. They didn't understand how the hot gases could negotiate the tortuous path and make it through a small opening created by a pinched cap.

What many people don't know is that Colt's earliest designs suffered from chain reactions due to a closed breech design Colt originally touted as a safety feature and a protection to the caps from the elements. Colt found his enclosed standing breech and on some designs enclosed blast shields on the front of the cylinders except the one aligned to the barrel, not only allowed chain fires, but exacerbated the problem. His later designs deepened the castellations and dropped the top of the cones below the surface of the rear of the cylinder. Even with these improvements the cloud of burning gas that actually comes back through a flash hole and envelops the entire rear breech area is much more than we imagine.

On August 29, 1839 Samuel Colt was issued a new patent for Improvement in Fire-Arms and in the Apparatus Used Therewith, included in his claims was a feature we now take for granted. That feature was the reduced opening at the chamber end of a percussion tube.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Prior to his design, tube through holes were either straight through or tapered in the opposite direction like a rocket engine nozzle as defined by the Robert Adams (Englishman) patent. With single shot weapons the back blast wasn't a significant issue and was much less than the flintlock actions they replaced. The expanding nozzle design was intended to enhance the effect of the burning priming compound and allow it to expand into the chamber. However the Adams design had a disadvantage in that powder "fines" could find their way into the tube itself and was prone to split upon firing. Again this was not a significant issue with larger rifles (using coarse powder and a tall charge) or even locks that had the flash hole path not in line with the chamber. With a small charge of finer powder and the crushing action of the rammer in line with the flash hole a' la many percussion revolver designs the fines sometimes had a way of falling back into the tube flash hole.


I have had conversations with other engineers about the section of US1304 that pertains to the through hole. The claim that Colt was making is that it enhanced the amount of ignition gas that could be "funneled" into the chamber, not that it allowed expansion as you would see with a nozzle. He had found that straight through holes had to be sufficiently small to prevent back blast back through the tube. In true Colt fashion he did not state, this "helped prevent chain fires by limiting the back blast through the flash hole." Colt did not wish to draw attention to this potential problem because it was one that plagued him and had caused consternation in his earliest military tests. He instead made it a "feature"¦", it funneled the "effect of the percussion powder" was his claim.


Colt's held this patent feature until 1853 when others began to use the same design. I have never seen it executed as a conical form, it is always a stepped arrangement on the 19th century tubes I have seen. Modern tubes have gone even further with the better percussion caps we have and have reduced the exit hole even further as is the case on high quality tubes like the Tresos. Small exit holes help reduce the amount of back blast.

In 2002 Dr. Authur Tobias (who is also a Colt's collector) with the help of high speed photography published an article titled, In the Blink of an Eye: The Percussion Ignition Sequence in Civil War .44s where he took both a Colt's Army Model and a Remington 58 and recorded the sequence of ignitions of those two pistols. Below is the ignition sequence of an 1860 SN 138466 made in 1863.

Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps

Note in the first individual frame the amount of burning material being thrown back past the hammer towards the shooter. In the second individual photo which is the 4th frame in the sequence you can see how fully engulfed the entire breach area is with hot burning gases. These gases will bounce off of the breech face back down into the castellations and then back up from the face the tube is screwed into. It is not hard to imagine this hot gas finding a way into the gap created by pinching a cap.

So, in closing; yes, the castellations will definitely help. But, as the photos illustrate, the burning gas rebounds off of the breech face and will jet into the cap areas to the right or left of the one being fired.

And one last thought"¦remember those where original Colt's tubes, not the modern designs like the Treso which many of us push with almost religious fervor. The Treso flash hole is specifically designed to attenuate the back blast coming back through the hole, while at the same time doing just as Samuel Colt's 173 year old patent claim intended, they funnel the priming gases down into the chamber.

Regards,
Mako
Author Topic: Cap Gun Primer: Percussion Caps(Read 750 times)

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This thread is for information only.
Please place all discussion on this topic here: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9094.0

Thank you!

courtesey Hedley Lamarr

endsnip==========================================================

The article is archived here
https://web.archive.org/web/20160321050630/http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9093.0

[Froogal]

Thank you. Obviously I need to study this information in depth.

[Crow Choker]

Excellent article. Can also be found in this forums 'Dark Arts' with other postings, questions, and answers around 3/4 down from top-'Cap Gun Primer: Correct Cone Length'. Very informative. Miss Mako's knowledge and postings.

Over the years since getting into cap and ball since 1972 and using percussion caps currently available, I like Rem's #10's, they seem to work best with all of the nipples used and offered. CCI #11's work well to if Rem 10's aren't available. They basically have most of the dimensions of Rem 10's but have a shorter skirt. The Rem 10's fit over and deeper over the nipples, seem to stay on better when firing. Stay away from CCI #10's, they fit tight, to tight that they won't seat onto the top of the nipple except on a few smaller than normal stock nipple. Found out the hard way on that, still have most of five tins I bought once. You had to force them with a dowel and even then, they wouldn't seat all of the way. Got concerned I'd detonate them. Believe the CCI 10's fit some of the small caliber five shot cappers with smaller dimension nipples.

The Mako articles were written before Slix-Shot nipples were available, the Track ones also which are basically Treso's in design. As the Professor posted Slix, Treso, and TOTW nipples all work well with Rem 10's, CCI 11's, and RWS 1075's. Same goes for the stock nipples Uberti and Pietta use. Check the dimension chart Mako posted comparing the external/internal dimensions on the various caps. It's best to have the skirt fit over the nipple having the skirt down as far as possible to accommodate the slanted design of the nipple (snug fit), but ya need to have the priming compound near the top of the nipple also. That's where the internal/externals of caps come into play and why the Rem 10, CCI 11, and RWS 1075's seem to work best overall with all of the factory and other nipples available. Always exceptions out there also. All of the Uberti cap and ball revolvers I have (Pietta's also), the three previously mentioned caps all worked well both in fit and staying on the nipples when firing.

[Froogal]

Excellent article. Can also be found in this forums 'Dark Arts' with other postings, questions, and answers around 3/4 down from top-'Cap Gun Primer: Correct Cone Length'. Very informative. Miss Mako's knowledge and postings.

Over the years since getting into cap and ball since 1972 and using percussion caps currently available, I like Rem's #10's, they seem to work best with all of the nipples used and offered. CCI #11's work well to if Rem 10's aren't available. They basically have most of the dimensions of Rem 10's but have a shorter skirt. The Rem 10's fit over and deeper over the nipples, seem to stay on better when firing. Stay away from CCI #10's, they fit tight, to tight that they won't seat onto the top of the nipple except on a few smaller than normal stock nipple. Found out the hard way on that, still have most of five tins I bought once. You had to force them with a dowel and even then, they wouldn't seat all of the way. Got concerned I'd detonate them. Believe the CCI 10's fit some of the small caliber five shot cappers with smaller dimension nipples.

The Mako articles were written before Slix-Shot nipples were available, the Track ones also which are basically Treso's in design. As the Professor posted Slix, Treso, and TOTW nipples all work well with Rem 10's, CCI 11's, and RWS 1075's. Same goes for the stock nipples Uberti and Pietta use. Check the dimension chart Mako posted comparing the external/internal dimensions on the various caps. It's best to have the skirt fit over the nipple having the skirt down as far as possible to accommodate the slanted design of the nipple (snug fit), but ya need to have the priming compound near the top of the nipple also. That's where the internal/externals of caps come into play and why the Rem 10, CCI 11, and RWS 1075's seem to work best overall with all of the factory and other nipples available. Always exceptions out there also. All of the Uberti cap and ball revolvers I have (Pietta's also), the three previously mentioned caps all worked well both in fit and staying on the nipples when firing.

Thank you! That does clarify the mystery a bit. In my various searches the CCI #11 shows up most often, but alas, all seem to be out of stock.

[Professor Marvel]

Thanks Crow Choker.

My brain is fried. I completely forgot about Mako's post here....

here is the link

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=35696

more stuff there too...

yhs
prof marvel

Excellent article. Can also be found in this forums 'Dark Arts' with other postings, questions, and answers around 3/4 down from top-'Cap Gun Primer: Correct Cone Length'. Very informative. Miss Mako's knowledge and postings.

Over the years since getting into cap and ball since 1972 and using percussion caps currently available, I like Rem's #10's, they seem to work best with all of the nipples used and offered. CCI #11's work well to if Rem 10's aren't available. They basically have most of the dimensions of Rem 10's but have a shorter skirt. The Rem 10's fit over and deeper over the nipples, seem to stay on better when firing. Stay away from CCI #10's, they fit tight, to tight that they won't seat onto the top of the nipple except on a few smaller than normal stock nipple. Found out the hard way on that, still have most of five tins I bought once. You had to force them with a dowel and even then, they wouldn't seat all of the way. Got concerned I'd detonate them. Believe the CCI 10's fit some of the small caliber five shot cappers with smaller dimension nipples.

The Mako articles were written before Slix-Shot nipples were available, the Track ones also which are basically Treso's in design. As the Professor posted Slix, Treso, and TOTW nipples all work well with Rem 10's, CCI 11's, and RWS 1075's. Same goes for the stock nipples Uberti and Pietta use. Check the dimension chart Mako posted comparing the external/internal dimensions on the various caps. It's best to have the skirt fit over the nipple having the skirt down as far as possible to accommodate the slanted design of the nipple (snug fit), but ya need to have the priming compound near the top of the nipple also. That's where the internal/externals of caps come into play and why the Rem 10, CCI 11, and RWS 1075's seem to work best overall with all of the factory and other nipples available. Always exceptions out there also. All of the Uberti cap and ball revolvers I have (Pietta's also), the three previously mentioned caps all worked well both in fit and staying on the nipples when firing.

[Coffinmaker]

All 

I too found MAKO's dissertation to be hugely informative.  He provided information the average nabob wouldn't access themselves too.  Really good stuff.  Then, much to my chagrin, I found Cap Guns can't read.  Nope.  Not one word.

After thoroughly digesting the information provided, I found no two Cap Guns responded in exactly the same way.  I found I still had to play with Caps to find the "right" combination of Cap vs Nipple.  Especially when considering the precision processes that go into making these tiny little Rocker Engines.

Play Safe Out There

[HamptonBogs45]

I just bought a new percussion revolver. Uberti model 0112 1858 new improved Navy 7 3/8" barrel, .36 caliber.

There is nothing in the instructions pertaining to what size caps will fit the nipples. Surely there has to be a way other than trial and error?

As of now, I have NO caps, and NO balls, but I do have some black powder.

rws 1075 will be the best you ever use. They fit uberti's like a glove. They also fit slix shot and other after market nipples perfectly also. Bigger nipples like on walkers and dragoons it depends. My uberti walker didn't like 10,1075 or 11. Some people say they like 10's the best. They all fell off so went with slixshot after market ones. My uberti dragoon fits the rws 1075's perfectly. Seems newer uberti's in the last couple years the quality control on nipples has gotten better and they seem to actually fit better. Pietta revolvers I've never owned one( I own 5) that had nipple that caps fit right they are terrible. They all need after market. My pietta single action starr revolver kinda works with pinched number 10's. My 2nd gen colts like the rws 1075 also. My old rogers & spencer made bu euro arms likes the 1075's also. I do a lot of cap and ball shooting with many brands of revolvers. Hope this helps.

[Froogal]

rws 1075 will be the best you ever use. They fit uberti's like a glove. They also fit slix shot and other after market nipples perfectly also. Bigger nipples like on walkers and dragoons it depends. My uberti walker didn't like 10,1075 or 11. Some people say they like 10's the best. They all fell off so went with slixshot after market ones. My uberti dragoon fits the rws 1075's perfectly. Seems newer uberti's in the last couple years the quality control on nipples has gotten better and they seem to actually fit better. Pietta revolvers I've never owned one( I own 5) that had nipple that caps fit right they are terrible. They all need after market. My pietta single action starr revolver kinda works with pinched number 10's. My 2nd gen colts like the rws 1075 also. My old rogers & spencer made bu euro arms likes the 1075's also. I do a lot of cap and ball shooting with many brands of revolvers. Hope this helps.

Yes. That helps. I am a complete virgin when it comes to these cap and ball revolvers. I didn't realize that selecting the correct cap would even be an issue.

[Crow Choker]

According to a post I read some time back, can't recall if on this forum or another, Remington changed the dimensions of their #10 caps some time back. This account was based on the writers personal opinion of problems incurred with shooting a revolver when he bought some new Rem 10's that he previously had shot using Rem 10's with no problem. Didn't give a whole lot of additional info when asked about it. I haven't seen this or had any problems associated with Remington #10's with either being hard to seat or failing to stay on the nipples when firing a different chamber. I've been using Rem 10's for years, have even used some bought within the last year, no probs.

My first capper was a Euroarms '51 Navy 44 caliber that I had to pinch the Italian caps I had back in the day so they'd seat and half would get blown off due to shock and awe. I did use some Rem #11's that I used on my percussion muzzleloader that worked good on it, but didn't like the Italian nipples on my early Uberti revolvers. Coffinmaker is right in a sense that there are exceptions to the rule on the fit of caps to nipples, but with the dozen of cap and ball Uberti and Pietta cappers I have (toss in a Ruger Old Army) and add to that three brands of after market nipples, not counting the originals that came on the revolvers, I have excellent results with Rem 10's as my 'go to' cap.

Comparing the 'Cap Dimension' chart Mako had on his posting about caps and nipples (cones as he called them), the Rem 10's have a longer external height (longer skirt) and a longer internal height which allows them to be seated more fully on the nipple. IMO it would take a nipple of much greater width than the average to prevent a Rem 10 from seating fully. Their longer skirt and deeper availability to be seated is why I like them. Rarely rarely rarely have a unfired one blown off a nipple when firing. In fact if for some reason I need to take any off if not firing a loaded chamber, I need to take a tool such as a knife to pop them off.

But there are exceptions to the rule as in everything. The CCI 11's and the RWS1075's do work if they are all that's available, both have near the same dimensions, but the longer skirt of the Rem 10's are what sell me on them. Also they have always been available at one of my LGS's except for a few of the component shortages (but I always had enough in stock not to have that be a problem). Never see RWS's much in my area and I won't pay the high freight cost associated with buying online.

[Froogal]

One of our local hardware stores dabbles in black powder stuff a little. Very little, but my wife DID find a tin of Remington #10s. Just one. That is all they had.

My round ball bullet mold should be delivered tomorrow, and 50 pounds of pure lead is supposed to be here Thursday. I'm gonna be busy for awhile.

[nativeshootist]

Midway USA has the RWS caps listed as discontinued, not sure if about that but i don't even know how to look into that.

[Professor Marvel]

Somewhere I have read that a feller went and manufactured a little sizer tool that squished caps that were "too large" down to "just right"

I shall have to see if i can find it or only deluded myself....

Yhs
Prf mumbles

[Major 2]

I don't recall that exactly, I do recall a tool that made caps out of strips of aluminum can stock.
You then place toy caps inside as the firing agent.
It looked like a handheld paper punch.

there is also this thing.

https://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2021/04/homemade-percussion-caps.html

[Froogal]

Midway USA has the RWS caps listed as discontinued, not sure if about that but i don't even know how to look into that.

Yes. I noticed that also, but they seem to be listed on other sites, but still unavailable.

[Coffinmaker]

  Well Heck   

First a CAVEAT:  I have no personal experience with RWS 1075 caps.  Never used 'em.  ALL of my Cap Guns run perfectly with Rem 10s and Slix nipples.  No need to experiment.

I do have a Percussion shootin friend however, who has hand nothing bu horror stories trying to use RWS Caps.  I have NO desire to repeat his trials and tribulations with the things.  Good Luck with 1075s.

Play Safe Out There

[Crow Choker]

Midway USA has the RWS caps listed as discontinued, not sure if about that but i don't even know how to look into that.

Was curious about the Midway discontinuation if they just dropped them from their store or couldn't get them. Checked online at around 10 outfits that the web indicated were selling RWS caps and all but one showed them out of stock and they were $10 a tin. Problem with caps is the Hazmat $$ will eat ya alive if they have to be shipped.

RWS is a German outfit that manufacturers ammo also, so if the caps are produced in Germany alot of things could be going on, ie. material shortage, shipping problems, to busy with ammo production. Ifin I were in great need of percussion caps and my local GS couldn't get em, I'd probably 'google' for outfits selling them within a 100 mile or so radius of my home, call to see if in stock, and spend the gas $$ to get em (hopefully ya don't have a gas hog vehicle). Happy I stocked up when they were available at my GS when they were $30-32 a 1000. Did grab some more at $5-6 a tin.

[Froogal]

Was curious about the Midway discontinuation if they just dropped them from their store or couldn't get them. Checked online at around 10 outfits that the web indicated were selling RWS caps and all but one showed them out of stock and they were $10 a tin. Problem with caps is the Hazmat $$ will eat ya alive if they have to be shipped.

RWS is a German outfit that manufacturers ammo also, so if the caps are produced in Germany alot of things could be going on, ie. material shortage, shipping problems, to busy with ammo production. Ifin I were in great need of percussion caps and my local GS couldn't get em, I'd probably 'google' for outfits selling them within a 100 mile or so radius of my home, call to see if in stock, and spend the gas $$ to get em (hopefully ya don't have a gas hog vehicle). Happy I stocked up when they were available at my GS when they were $30-32 a 1000. Did grab some more at $5-6 a tin.

I did use "Bing" search for those caps. Several websites came up, all out of stock, but no local retailers. Not even Bass Pro.