45 Colt BP question

[DeaconKC]

Okay, I know that with smokeless you can get a lot of blowby if you don't shoot heavier loads. Does BP or it's subs have the same problem? Will I have problems with getting too much fouling in the action of a rifle [73 or 92] running BP in a .45 Colt?

[wildman1]

Three main factors, bullet weight, powder load and annealed brass.
wM1
ps #4 a good crimp.

[DeaconKC]

Three main factors, bullet weight, powder load and annealed brass.
wM1
ps #4 a good crimp.

Thanks, I already do all that except annealing, thinking about this as a new pair of Uberti 1873 SAAs just arrived here, so I am debating about using them [my Schofields will stay smokeless].

[Abilene]

Lots of people shoot BP in 45 Colt rifles and just deal with having to clean them more, and possibly a bit of maintenance during a match (sticky carrier).  Not too many go to the extra effort of annealing, or fireforming 44wcf brass, but if you like doing that sort of thing then they do work. 

Makes no difference to the pistols, so if you do anneal, keep track of of which is which.

[Cap'n Redneck]

The top BP Cartridge shooters I know swear by annealing and using sesame-seeds as a filler.
Sesame-seeds contain close to 50% oil, and the only thing to beat that would be a grease cookie.
The sesame oil mixes with the BP residue and keeps cylinders spinning and cartridge lifters going...
Finally I can add that using the more clean-burning BP's; Swiss or Olde Eynsford, also are beneficial.

I trust that You are aware of the necessity of having a mechanical connection between the lever and cartridge-lifter arm?  Trusting for the cartridge-lifter return-spring to overcome the accumulating gunk by itself will leave You in dire need of a screwdriver or knife to poke the cartridge-lifter all the way back down.
(This applies to the 1860,1866 & 1873.  I have no experience with the 1892.)

[Coffinmaker]

. Hi Deacon 

PLUS ONE for Cap'n Redneck you betcha.

Simple answer:  Yes.  Rest assured fouling WILL be a problem with rifles shooting OEM .45 Colt cases.  45 Colt cases WILL NOT expand to seal the chamber unless annealed.  It's that simple.  Heavy loads may reduce fouling (probably not) but annealing will eliminate it.  This is true for both, BP and Subs.

Blowby is much less and issue with Handguns.  While there may be blowby, there really aren't that collage of moving parts to be affected.  Annealing may make cases "sticky" in the chambers.

People are Still Hazardous to Yer Health

[greyhawk]

yeah what they all said
45 colt brass is kinda tough at the front end - son has a replica spencer - we annealed the brass for it - some fellers make it complicated but its a quick easy process
stand em half submerged in a tray of cold water, apply propane torch flame one at the time and when you see a green colour come in the torch flame tip him over in the water and go to the next one -------rinse and repeat ! dont take long at all to do a hundred cases.

[Froogal]

Explain to me how annealing the brass helps? Does it somewhat soften the brass, making it easier to conform to the  chamber for less blow-back?

[Cap'n Redneck]

@ Froogal: In short; yes.

[Froogal]

@ Froogal: In short; yes.

Thank you. Guess I'll be doing some annealing.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

One  solution is to fire form .44-40 brass to .45 Colt. Brand new .44-40 cases are straight with no neck.
The thinner case mouth does a good job of obturation.
It is a bit of work to make the new case, and it will not fit in a single action but works in a rifle.
Annealing after a couple of reloads will be needed but it is worth it.
Your lifter will be remarkably clean after a six stage match.
Coffinmaker put me on to this trick and it works.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

[DeaconKC]

Cleaning the guns is not the problem, as I am used to cleaning milsurps with corrosive primers for decades. I scrub my guns after each match anyway. I just wanted to find out what I am going to need to do to make sure the guns will run through a match.

[Abilene]

Nothing special.  Just lube them up with a BP friendly lube (I use Ballistol, despite the smell).  If you can see any light between the cylinder and the barrel, you will probably be fine.

[Cliff Fendley]

Someone explain this to me because I ever quite understood going through the trouble of using 44-40 brass in a 45 colt. If you are going to buy 44-40 brass then why not just have a 44-40 rifle and have the best of all worlds when it comes to weapons of the soot lords? or a 38-40 or a 32-20 for that matter.

Is it just so your pistol and rifle are the same caliber? because they do make 44-40 pistols too you know. or 38-40 or 32-20 for that matter

And if it's a reason for 45 colt being easier to reload I don't buy that excuse because I reload them all and the wcf calibers are absolutely no more difficult and I do them all the same way as I do 45 colt, 45 schofield, 38 special, or any other straight cases. I guess there is the argument you don't have to lube straight cases with carbide dies but I give them a spritz of one shot anyway just because it makes the press run smoother and know quite a few people that also lube straight wall cases for that reason. Those stiff little 45 schofield cases can be a real drag (pun intended) but a spritz of one shot and the press just about runs itself.

[Professor Marvel]

Explain to me how annealing the brass helps? Does it somewhat soften the brass, making it easier to conform to the  chamber for less blow-back?

My Good Froogal....

Thanks for Asking!

It a long and invovled story, but one that needs telling!

First we must hearken back to our early days in the Chemistry and Metallurgy class...

Iron and steel ( ie "ferrous") when engaged in their native state are almost invariabley starting out as "soft" , or "annealed".
This means that the atomic structure of the metal is not aligned, and the metal is basically "soft.

Both Iron and steel will "work harden" and become brittle.
If one heats them to approximately red (the crystal structure loses alignement) and cools them slowly ( heheheh define "slowly)
they become "annealed" or soft again.

Steel can be heat treated to be "hardened" .... ie - heated to red , the crystal structure becomes fluid, then quenchened quickly
(hehehe define "quickly") and the crystal structure stays aligned... ie "hard"

I will now deferr to Mr Wikipedia for a few detailed, precise an succint sentences:

snip --------------------
Depending on the temperature, it (steel) can take two crystalline forms (allotropic forms): body centred cubic and face centred cubic.
The interaction of the allotropes of iron with the alloying elements, primarily carbon, gives steel and cast iron their range of unique properties.

In pure iron, the crystal structure has relatively little resistance to the iron atoms slipping past one another, and so pure iron is quite ductile,
or soft and easily formed.

In steel, small amounts of carbon, other elements, and inclusions within the iron act as hardening agents that prevent the movement of dislocations.

The carbon in typical steel alloys may contribute up to 2.14% of its weight. Varying the amount of carbon and many other alloying elements,
as well as controlling their chemical and physical makeup in the final steel (either as solute elements, or as precipitated phases), slows
the movement of those dislocations that make pure iron ductile, and thus controls and enhances its qualities. These qualities include the
hardness, quenching behaviour, need for annealing, tempering behaviour, yield strength, and tensile strength of the resulting steel.
The increase in steel's strength compared to pure iron is possible only by reducing iron's ductility.
endsnip----------------------

and

snip----------------------
In metallurgy and materials science, annealing is a heat treatment that alters the physical and sometimes chemical properties of a material
to increase its ductility and reduce its hardness, making it more workable. It involves heating a material above its recrystallization temperature,
maintaining a suitable temperature for an appropriate amount of time and then cooling.

In annealing, atoms migrate in the crystal lattice and the number of dislocations decreases, leading to a change in ductility and hardness.
As the material cools it recrystallizes. For many alloys, including carbon steel, the crystal grain size and phase composition, which ultimately
determine the material properties, are dependent on the heating rate and cooling rate. Hot working or cold working after the annealing
process alters the metal structure, so further heat treatments may be used to achieve the properties required. With knowledge of the
composition and phase diagram, heat treatment can be used to adjust from harder and more brittle to softer and more ductile.

In the case of ferrous metals, such as steel, annealing is performed by heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and then
slowly letting it cool to room temperature in still air. Copper, silver and brass can be either cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in
water.[1] In this fashion, the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.
endsnip------------------------------


Brass and other Copper alloys are a bit contrary. They cannot be hardened by heat, but they do work harden.
Once work hardened, brass and bronze are brittle, and more likely to split.

However, one Can anneal or soften brass by heating it past magic "phase point" and letting it cool. Unlike steel, one
can cool brass quickly in a quench and it weill still remain soft.

So to summarize.

brass got brittle by work hardening
anneal only the case mouth by heating the case mouth to about red, then dumping in water.
make sure to not anneal the case head ( the part near the rim ) - that leads to a less harmonious outcome....


hope this helps
prf mumbles

[DeaconKC]

Cliff, in my case it boils down to having just picked up a pair of Uberti El Patrons in .45 Colt. I have been running Schofields and they are not BP friendly. So it is really just a matter loading using a different press system for the BP. Having heard many folks complain about blowby, I figured I would ask here from folks that shoot it. Strangely enough having shifted last summer to wet tumbling, using Armorall Carwash and Wax, I don't have the need to give the cases a spritz of One Shot anymore either. As far as 44-40, I love the cartridge but am not running it right now, but now you have me thinking about using the BP in that instead of bothering with the 45!

[Professor Marvel]

Cliff, in my case it boils down to having just picked up a pair of Uberti El Patrons in .45 Colt. I have been running Schofields and they are not BP friendly. So it is really just a matter loading using a different press system for the BP. Having heard many folks complain about blowby, I figured I would ask here from folks that shoot it. Strangely enough having shifted last summer to wet tumbling, using Armorall Carwash and Wax, I don't have the need to give the cases a spritz of One Shot anymore either. As far as 44-40, I love the cartridge but am not running it right now, but now you have me thinking about using the BP in that instead of bothering with the 45!

Deacon, in those revolvers, you may find that the 44-40 rim  @ .525 inches a tad too large compared to .512 for the 45 Colt
If it fits, hooray!
if not, well a little unimat lathe will fix that...

[DeaconKC]

Deacon, in those revolvers, you may find that the 44-40 rim  @ .525 inches a tad too large compared to .512 for the 45 Colt
If it fits, hooray!
if not, well a little unimat lathe will fix that...

My Good Professor, I have a 66 Yellowboy and one lonely Uberti SAA in 44-40 right now. So, therein lies the rub. As my other 44-40 revolver went in the trade for these two new rascals! I was planning on trading one of them for another 44-40, but that plan went astray. So now I will be looking for another 44-40 to round out the set.  Anybody want to trade a 5 1/2" CC Uberti for a clean Winchester Model 12?

[Coffinmaker]

  By golly Cliff   

I think you have something there.  Just not sure what.  I'm not imbued with a Money Tree in the back garden.  When I compare a hundred bucks worth of 44-40 brass to 1000 - 1500 for a new rifle, that hundred bucks seems pretty reasonable.

A body can get a lot of shooting out of a couple hundred pieces of brass and have a clean rifle to boot.  I don't necessarily recommend annealing for Handgun cartridges as the result may be sticky cases, and it really isn't necessary for revolvers. 

However, it can and will made a difference for those who already own a Toggle Link or Straight Bolt rifle.  We again come to the economics.  If we're not made of money and can't buy a rifle a week, 44-40 cases and annealed cases make a lot of sense.  Just do the arithmetic.

Oh, and many revolvers chambered for 45 Colt have the star cut to also chamber 45 Schofield and/or 44-40.

People Are Hazardous to Yer Health

[Cliff Fendley]

  By golly Cliff   

I think you have something there.  Just not sure what.  I'm not imbued with a Money Tree in the back garden.  When I compare a hundred bucks worth of 44-40 brass to 1000 - 1500 for a new rifle, that hundred bucks seems pretty reasonable.

A body can get a lot of shooting out of a couple hundred pieces of brass and have a clean rifle to boot.  I don't necessarily recommend annealing for Handgun cartridges as the result may be sticky cases, and it really isn't necessary for revolvers. 

However, it can and will made a difference for those who already own a Toggle Link or Straight Bolt rifle.  We again come to the economics.  If we're not made of money and can't buy a rifle a week, 44-40 cases and annealed cases make a lot of sense.  Just do the arithmetic.

Oh, and many revolvers chambered for 45 Colt have the star cut to also chamber 45 Schofield and/or 44-40.

People Are Hazardous to Yer Health

I understand that. I guess my thinking was if you are just going to own one and plan to shoot BP then why not trade the 45 for a 44 and make life simple? I agree if a person is in love with what they have and don't want to trade then make what you have work. Personally I've had some rifles chambered in 45 colt but they found new homes and I don't really have plans to ever own another. I've found the WCF flavors to be superior chamberings for rifles so I stay in that lane regardless if they get smokeless or BP. Not only do they shoot clean but the tapered cases just seem to feed and extract smoother.