44-40 reloads.

[bear tooth billy]

I think leading usually comes from an undersized bullet. Groove diameter or
.001'' over should be fine.

        BTB

[Ranch 13]

 Velocity is no indication of pressure.
Per example in the Lyman 48 manual maximum charge of unique gives 1282 fps at max pressure, but the maximum charge of 2400 gives 1638 at the same 19,600 cup pressure.

[cpt dan blodgett]

I am embarkng on a similar mission with 2 different guns one a Miroku 73 20 inch carbine 44-40 that I bought years ago shot 15 rounds thru with sample bullets before ordering 1000 .428 despardo bullets from cowboybullets.com.  The other a brand new shiney week old or so 5.5 inch uberti cattleman in 44-40 from taylors, ordered 2 once came like 2 days after the order placed.  Got lucky on that one.  I digress.  Today I embarked on the loading adventure.  Initially I made small adjustments on the seating die until the shiney resized mark got very close to but not into radius where shoulder starts on a fired case.   Made other adjustments to expand seat bullets and put minimal lee factor chrimp on rounds with proper spec OAL.  Tested first 2 rounds in the miroku feed and extract flawlessly with no resistance.  Tried the to rounds in my Cattleman 2 holes at a time until all six checked out.  Loaded 8 more dummies they work fine in rifle and chamber with no resistance in the cattleman.  I loaded up 10 round each at 5.4 5.6 5.8 6.0 and 6.2 grains A#2.  My lyman cast bullet manual gives a 5.4 starting load for 205 grainers and a 6.0 grain starting load for the 200 grain bullet which has a 6.5 grain max, so I should be good to go.  Plan to hit the range wednesday or thursday and shoot 5 of each load thru the rifle and pistol rifle 25 or 50 yards looking for groups and pistol at 10 which is a near as they let one shoot at Ben Avery last time I was out.  I have had good luck with the desparado bullets in my rossi 92s and ruger Original Vaquero 44 mags no leading,  Will give a range report after I hit the range.  Just looked at my miroku silly me it is not a carbine it is the short rifle with cresent butt plate and cap on foreend.  Prolly makes all the difference in the world

[Keith H.]

In my Miroku sporting rifle with pistol grip stock, I like to have two loads. The first is my all-around load that is basically the smokeless-for-black of the original, but I like to keep the cast boolits as close to .430 as possible in the Miroku due to the .429 bore....200gr rnfp over 8 grs. Unique. I've used this on some VERY large wild hogs and never failed, even when others down the .44-40 as too weak for those hogs, they say only a high power rifle will take them down. Now, the second load is if I want to actually know I've bumped it up all I can, and that is a 240gr. hard cast over 23.5grs RL-7...at 1290fps, still only 12,100 CUP and safe in toggle links.

[Bryan Austin]

The rifle is a brand new uberti sporting in 44-40 with 24 inch barrel.

I assume a Winchester 73", if so it would be best to stay with loading manual max loads of 13,000cup

Everything I have found indicates the new ubertis are a .429 bore.

That is certainly typical. As long as you stick with .428" or less until you check, you should be fine. I can explain later if need be.

I have seen references to using a 200gn JSP bullet.

It is best to stay with 200gr JSP Winchester .4255"bullets until you check the bore dimension.

Seems RL-7 is the go to but I have zero on hand.

I can touch on this later...use what you have on hand to get you started, keep loads low until you get the hang of loading them first.

Of the powders I have on hand that might be suitable  are a good supply of W231, Unique, Blue Dot, H110, H322?

Unique is what I would suggest but it may not be as clean as W231, never used W231. Do not use anything slower than Reloder 7...refer to above answer about Reloder 7

So any particular flavor of 200gn JSP?

Winchester .4255" or Remington .426" JSP. Once you get the hang of loading, and figure the bore diameter, you can look at Lyman's book at 44 special JSP bullets at .429" or 44 Mag bullets at .430"

Of these powders best bet for getting close to original velocities which I believe were around 1250fps?

Original BP velocities were 1,325fps while the smokeless loads were 1,300 then back to 1,325 then back down to 1,310 by the 1960's. The catch here is that these velocities were achieved with rifle powders we no longer have today. These powders were basically replaced with faster burning pistol powders. Because of this, the pressures forced slower velocities to keep from going over 13,000cup. Another long story we can work out later.

Unique is best choice.

I have seen references from I believe 44wcf using TP as a filler?

John used fillers for certain powders that are position sensitive like 4227. Stay away from this for right now, fillers cause higher pressures and are a pain to use.

Dies are lee with lee factory crimp die.

Not my choice but is probably what you need to learn with.

Brass is starline.

The best, this brass is thicker than Winchester and thinner than Remington (chambering issues, more on this later)

Press is Dillon RL550.

Doesn't really what you use, I suggest a single stage until you get the hang of it. Trying to do much too soon will get discouraging.

Of the powders listed best bet and charge for my goal of 200gn JSP at 1250fps or close as is realistic. Thanks for any and all help.

Again, Unique

Also not set on bullet weight or type. Was leaning towards jacketed as it seems would be "cleaner" in a rifle? Not adverse to lead or jacketed and certainly not stuck on 200gn but that seems to be the go to weight?

Clean would be the powder used, Unique and Reloder 7 are the dirtiest. If you want clean, better go get a 357 magnum or suffer velocity with the 44-40. I can better explain if needed.

I do have on hand a god supply of 240gn SWC lead hard cast bullets (for my Smith 29) would these be suitable or too heavy?

Yes, they are too heavy unless you use Reloder 7. No longer listed but there was a published 23.5gr for a 240 lead bullet. HOWEVER, these should be lead round nose flat point basic design. I have tested several 240gr options and pressures varied greatly!!

[Bryan Austin]

So I will keep these closer to 1300 than 1100 and keep an eye on the leading situation. Will of course keep an eye on the brass for signs of pressure but that brings up a point. I doubt that at 1300 I would see signs of high pressure but that does not mean the 1873 will like it so max 1250 should be good? thank you all for the replies.

You can far exceed chamber pressures regardless of velocities as well as not see any signs of "over pressure" on the primers. The reason is because of the use of pistol powders rather than rifle powders.

Do not load for velocity in the 73' or revolvers. The Winchester 92' and Marlin's can handle the higher pressures

[Abilene]

I have used Lee dies exclusively for all my reloading.   And I am very happy with the results, with one exception: 44-40.  For tight Uberti chambers, I have had to limit myself to .428 or smaller bullets, using only Starline or Winchester brass with their thin necks.  And even then sometimes they are too tight.  The problem is in the seating.  It has been suggested often over the years that if you are loading larger bullets, say .429, in the 44-40 with Lee dies, then substitute the 44 Mag/Spcl flare die in the powder-thru die.  I have done that.  Nevertheless, the bullet doesn't always seat straight and you can see a small ridge on one side of the loaded round.  People have suggested some good seating dies (mostly $$$) but I have gotten by so far with the Lee.  It is something to be aware of, though.

[cpt dan blodgett]

First and foremost every round I loaded had CCI Large Pistol Primers.  All went boom in both the pistol and rifle.  What ever Uberti does on their Charcoal Blue and Case hardened cattleman leaves enough umph in the hammer spring to reliable set off CCI primers which are rumored to be the hardest.  The Rifle also went bang everytime so no issues with liight hits from a stock as a rock Miroku. 

I loaded 5.4 5.6 5.8. 6.0 6.2 the 5.4 averaged 580-590 5.6 650 ish 5.8 670 is 6.0 700 ish 6.2 735 ish  from the cattleman.  The 5.4 grain load shot about 4 inches low at 10 yards.  The distance low decease a bit with each successive load until the 6.2 group was 1.75 to 2 Inches low.  Windage of the sigts was pretty good. With the rifle velocites ranged from 700 ut to 1050 ish FPs as I moved up the charge latter shooting something like 3 inch groups at 25 yards with 72 year old eyes and a center hold.  Bottom line any of the charges will work for Cowboy Action shooting and will hit close enough to point of Aim that any target that is larger than 10 inches will fall if one aims at the center without messing with the sights. Chron was somewhat problematic with a AR with Muzzle breaks to either side and on the right occasionally shooting a .308 AR with break.  Pen woujld not right so I coujld not mark start and stop with each powder charge.  Overall i like the cattleman and honestly did not notice 3 click vs 4 click cocking the piece.  A have been routinely shooting Ruger Vaqueros both original in 44 mag (44 spec level loads 750 ish FPS) and NMV in 45 colt with 7.5 inch barrels.  Given they do not 4 click I never got used to a 4 click.  I do have a 3 screw single six 22 that 4 clicks, think I have shot it like 3 times in 30 years. 

[Bryan Austin]

To clarify chamber pressures vs velocity and primer high pressure signs.

Winchester offered the 44 Winchester High Velocity load (44 W.H.V.) for the Winchester Model 1892' (not for use in the 73' or revolvers). This round was manufactured from 1903 to 1938 but last seen in catalogs through 1942. So for nearly 40 years this high velocity load was available.

Anyhow.....the service pressures noted in 1917 for this "Low Pressure", "High Velocity" load was between 18,000 cup and 23,500 cup. THUS you can not look for high pressure signs with this cartridge using standard 13,000 cup loads or accidently loading a 22,000 cup load and blowing up a revolver or damaging a 73' rifle.

Now, on the other hand...the 44-40 was once loaded to 15,000 cup for both rifles and revolvers for many many years until it was lowered to 13,000 cup. Most modern factory 44-40 hunting loads are 10% to 20% below SAAMI 13,000 cup max pressures and most low recoil cowboy loads barely hit 6,000 cup. All of this is because the rifle powders were replaced with pistol powders. Even in the 1930's when the 44-40 92' rifle loads were loaded to 33,000 cup using 2400 @ 2,100fps, Unique loads were only loaded to 16,000 cup @ 1,520fps....this was with Winchester 200gr .4255" JSP bullets.

In short, DO NOT try to replicate original velocities (1,325fps) with pistol powders....PERIOD! The absolute only exception would be with the use of Unique IF DONE PROPERLY!

This might help

NOTE: The 12gr charge pressure replicates an accidental 6gr double charge when used in revolvers!!!!!

[Bryan Austin]

I have used Lee dies exclusively for all my reloading.   And I am very happy with the results, with one exception: 44-40.  For tight Uberti chambers, I have had to limit myself to .428 or smaller bullets, using only Starline or Winchester brass with their thin necks.  And even then sometimes they are too tight.  The problem is in the seating.  It has been suggested often over the years that if you are loading larger bullets, say .429, in the 44-40 with Lee dies, then substitute the 44 Mag/Spcl flare die in the powder-thru die.  I have done that.  Nevertheless, the bullet doesn't always seat straight and you can see a small ridge on one side of the loaded round.  People have suggested some good seating dies (mostly $$$) but I have gotten by so far with the Lee.  It is something to be aware of, though.

One option that works very well is the Lyman "M" die.

Let me start over...somewhat...

Sometimes the inside dimensions of a series of dies, such as Lee's Resizing die, may vary from one to another. For example, my Lee resizing die resized my cases to the smallest size available. I forget the measurements right off, but small enough that using larger than .427 bullets gives me a hard time. The RCBS "Cowboy" resizing dies does not resize as small and is better for the .428 bullets. To include the expander plug as well....over resizing just to over expand does nothing but overwork the brass.

If resizing the brass all the way down to the smallest size that best is used with the .4255" JSP, then slightly expanding for a .427 might work fine...but when trying to push a .428 into a hole designed for a .4255", regardless of bellow size...problems are sure to follow such as described by Abilene.

Not only does the 44-40 firearm's bore's very in sizes from .424" thru .433", so do the chambers as well as the reloading dies. If you are going to use Winchester's .4255" JSP bullets, you need to use the dies that match. Same with .429" or .430" bullets.

Back to the "M" die. This die expands the case mouth into a "square" pocket the starts the bullet seating squared-up straight rather that at an angle with a typical case mouth bellow.

As many of you may know, I use several different handloading options for different bullets that I use. It is a must for consistency in the long run.

Another issue for chambering is a problem seldom noticed after roll crimping or even squeeze crimping with the LFCD. If the bullet is too big and the crimp groove is too deep, the case will bulge just below the crimp. This will be cause the case to be too big just below the crimp, and will not chamber. More so with revolvers and less noticeable in rifles due to the lever action leverage in snapping the cartridge into the chamber with a tad bit of resistance.

Each shooter has to figure all of these things out that are different for everyone owning a shooting 44-40 cartridge firearms. It is a domino effect and ya gotta figure out exactly where the problem is......which can be totally different between each shooter.

The below photo shows what the crimp bulge looks like.

[Bryan Austin]

Below is an example of my different loading options and techniques. The small .4255" JSP vs a .428 lead bullet. Not the area below the JSP and note all of the "curves" on the cases walls between the crimp and the taper of the case. This shows such differences and I can explain every one of them and why I do it.

Resizing
Expanding
Seating
Crimping

After all is said and done, I use the exact same crimp die to achieve both desired and totally different crimps seen below......the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp die

[Bryan Austin]

In this example, same bullet...different crimp methods.

Bullet is a hand cast 43-214A with no crimp groove. The dies push the case mouth into the soft lead.

Left - Redding Profile Crimp
Right - Lee FCD

The second photo shows the crimp depth measurement on a pulled bullet that used the Redding Profile Crimp Die. This can not be accomplished with a hard cast bullet.

[Abilene]

Thanks Bryan, this is the first time I have heard of the Lee sizing die sizing to minimum (and what that can lead to).  Makes sense.  I am only loading 44-40 for CAS and not often at that since I shoot a variety of guns and calibers, so I have not delved into the finer points.  But knowing how to improve things should I get more serious with it is good to know.  As I mentioned before, I've heard of some dies recommended by folks over the years but never knew the "how and why" that they would be better.

[Bryan Austin]

Thanks Abilene!!


To continue...
On the 44-40 website I have always tried to list all aspects of reloading the 44-40 cartridges and why. It has not been easy and the only way for me to improve is to learn from these types of topics/posts/replies.

So far I have started with this;

(https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading)

First;

A true 44-40 bullet has a diameter of .4255 (JSP) - .427 (Cast)

Older original pre-1900 rifles had bores as small as .424 and should not use bullets with diameters greater than .427...especially with loads that produce higher than modern SAAMI max pressures of 13,000cup/11,000psi      (2015 SAAMI Standards)

Understand that most modern 44-40 firearms use 44 special/44 Magnum barrels with larger .429/.430 bores acceptable for using 44 Special and Magnum bullets with diameters of .429/.430 but "could" retain the smaller 44-40 case mouth dimensions making chambering difficult for thicker Remington brass using .429+ diameter bullets. Most retain 44-40 1:36" twist while some are reported to have the 44 Magnum 1:20" twist, suitable for long range 240gr loads.

Understand what a true 44-40 bullet "Profile" looks like. Certain so called 44-40 bullets and/or the use of some 44 Special and 44 Magnum profile bullets may be "too wide" just forward  of the case mouth and touch the driving bands of the bore when chambered. This, along with simply adjusting the AOL,  can increase chamber pressures and could cause problems in older "weaker" firearms.

Second;

Understand the difference between "Group I and Group II" rifles mentioned in Lyman's 49th handloading manual

Understand that the "thin" cylinder chamber walls in a revolver are certainly weaker than the thicker rifle barrel chambers and weaker than the "Action" on a Winchester 73'


Third;

When loading for rifle and revolver,

1. Rifles - Longer distance shooting may yield better results when using slower burning rifle powders like Reloder 7, IMR-4227, 2400

2. Revolvers - Pistol powders like Unique and Bullseye yield better results.

[Davem]

What's better in a rifle, a hard cast lead or a lead with a gas check? I thought as a general rule lead could be driven to a high speed than jacketed bullets.
And another point. It used to be said that more whitetail deer were killed with 44/40 rounds than anything else but I am wondering if all those old rounds with lead bullets were more effective than today's jacketed bullets?

[Bryan Austin]

What's better in a rifle, a hard cast lead or a lead with a gas check? I thought as a general rule lead could be driven to a high speed than jacketed bullets.
And another point. It used to be said that more whitetail deer were killed with 44/40 rounds than anything else but I am wondering if all those old rounds with lead bullets were more effective than today's jacketed bullets?

Winchester started manufacturing smokeless powder loads in 1895 with the JSP, referred to then as soft point metal patched, bullets. These new smokeless loads were also offered with lead bullets. All of these smokeless loads were at normal black powder velocities @ about 14,000 to 15,000cup. It is highly probable that a great deal of those deer were killed with a JSP for those that did not prefer the new 30-30 after 1895.

In 1903, Winchester manufactured the High Velocity loads at 1,570fps of which they also used the JSP bullets @ about 22,000cup

1930's handloading data shows 200gr lead bullets loaded to 1,910 fps without the use of gas checks

The trick to not needing a gas check on lead bullets is that the slower burning case capacity smokeless powders created lower pressures than that of our 357, 41 and 44 Mags but also acted like a gas check. During tests performed (I forget who as well as what cartridge at the moment) back in the day, lead bullets were recovered and the imprint of the powder grains were noted on the base of the lead bullets, no leading was noted.

For your application, you have to figure out what works best. It has been argued that burnt soft lead can leave a leaded bore or the use of hard lead will not seal the bore if too small and allow gases to pass the base of the bullet and leave leading.