Winchester - Miroku 1873 with black powder?

LonesomePigeon · November 23, 2021, 09:25:14 AM

Is anybody shooting the Miroku made Winchester '73 with real black powder?

Here is my new to me Miroku(the pic is from the seller).

King Medallion · November 23, 2021, 10:36:03 AM

No reason not to, thats what they were made for.

Ranch 13 · November 23, 2021, 11:27:05 AM

I shoot mine in 44wcf with 40 grains of OE 3f under the lyman .430 205 grain bullet cast 16-1 and lubed with Bullshop NASA lube.
It shoots 10 shot strings just fine, and if you miss the targets at 200 meters, it's not the gun or the load.

I did replace the front sight with a shorter one so it doesn't take all the elevator on the rear sight to make 200 and beyond.

Dave T · November 24, 2021, 10:03:19 AM

My Miroku Winchester, a standard rifle, has never fired anything but black powder cartridges. It never will until I'm in the ground and my wife sells it to someone who is afraid of cleaning guns. LOL

Dave

Pettifogger · December 07, 2021, 01:31:25 PM

Why would it be any different than firing BP out of a Uberti? My Winchester 73 in .44-40 has never fired anything but BP.

LonesomePigeon · December 13, 2021, 01:28:37 PM

I have been slow to get back to this thread but I have been working on finding loads for this rifle. What prompted the question was that I got a pretty nice group with Unique smokeless powder and then on the same day got an absolutely terrible group with my first attempt at black powder. I would have to look back at my notes but if I remember correctly the Unique was around 8 grains and gave sub 2" at 50 yards. That's good for me considering open sights. Then the black powder gave me a 8" group at 25 yards. Very bad. So I just wanted to hear from others and if they are getting good results with black powder I know I just have to keep working. Thank you for the replies.

Abilene · December 13, 2021, 02:48:42 PM

Lonesome, you didn't mention what type of bullets you were using for BP. Your '73 looks to have a 24" barrel, so you need plenty of soft lube to keep from losing accuracy. There could be other reasons for poor accuracy of course, but did the BP group start out small and then get larger?

LonesomePigeon · December 13, 2021, 06:12:23 PM

Abilene, I was using the Mav Dutchman bullet with lambfat/beeswax lube sized to .429". It carries plenty of lube. I checked my notes and I was using a reduced charge of 27 grains of 2F Goex black powder plus Cream of Wheat filler. The group was 6" at 25 yards fired from a sandbag rest. Not quite as bad as I remember but still pretty bad.

That was last week. I have just got back from the range today and I have much better news. First of all I got a Marbles tang peep sight. Secondly I tried a stouter load. Same Mav Dutchman bullet sized to .429" and lubed with lambfat/beeswax but now with 38 grains by volume of Schuetzen 3F and no filler. With this load I got a fantastic 3 shot group of 3/4" at 25 yards off a sandbag rest. I wanted to take it to 50 yards but it was raining off and on and becoming unpleasant.

I think the peep sight helped a lot but I did find it a bit awkward being located on the tang and so close to my eyes. There is more to report, I also shot a Pedersoli Lightning .44-40 today, eventually I will post some targets. For now suffice it to say I am quite pleased with the Miroku-Winchester as a black powder shooter. Now it is time to clean some guns.

Abilene · December 13, 2021, 07:25:57 PM

That is mucho better!

My 44-40 CAS loads are 25gr of FFg with grits filler. I honestly have no idea how it groups but I don't miss out to 50 yards or so. I do have some loaded with Olde Eynsford FFg and no filler, for when I get a chance to do some longer range stuff, though it is just a 19" carbine. I shoot every weekend and a lot of calibers but only CAS for years now. Someday I need to spend a day at a range with paper and see what all these loads are doing.

cpt dan blodgett · May 05, 2022, 02:28:20 AM

I am about to enter the rabbit warren of Holy Black shooting with my Miruko 1873 20 inch Carbine. Have received an Accurate 205 grain .428 big lube 4 cavity mold and a brace of Uberti 5.5 inch Cattlemen in 44-40 to round out the battery. Have plenty of lead and Beeswax Buffalo Tallow and parafin lube I made up years ago. Mutton tallow has not gone rancid. Have a few pounds of Old eynsford laying around at about 200 rounds per pound should not run out before the new plant gets into production. Will let you know how things go. Both Pistols and rifle seem to like 200 rnfp with about 6.2 grains of A#2 will be interesting to do head to head competitions.

David Battersby · May 05, 2022, 06:38:05 PM

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=40683.0

You will find some useful information in this thread along with the black powder sticky for the 1873 topic.

Cliff Fendley · May 15, 2022, 03:00:59 PM

Quote from: LonesomePigeon on December 13, 2021, 06:12:23 PM
Abilene, I was using the Mav Dutchman bullet with lambfat/beeswax lube sized to .429". It carries plenty of lube. I checked my notes and I was using a reduced charge of 27 grains of 2F Goex black powder plus Cream of Wheat filler. The group was 6" at 25 yards fired from a sandbag rest. Not quite as bad as I remember but still pretty bad.

That was last week. I have just got back from the range today and I have much better news. First of all I got a Marbles tang peep sight. Secondly I tried a stouter load. Same Mav Dutchman bullet sized to .429" and lubed with lambfat/beeswax but now with 38 grains by volume of Schuetzen 3F and no filler. With this load I got a fantastic 3 shot group of 3/4" at 25 yards off a sandbag rest. I wanted to take it to 50 yards but it was raining off and on and becoming unpleasant.

I think the peep sight helped a lot but I did find it a bit awkward being located on the tang and so close to my eyes. There is more to report, I also shot a Pedersoli Lightning .44-40 today, eventually I will post some targets. For now suffice it to say I am quite pleased with the Miroku-Winchester as a black powder shooter. Now it is time to clean some guns.

I have found similar results with Uberti rifles. Had horrible accuracy using reduced loads with cream of wheat in all guns. Mav44 using full house BP loads will drive tacks in the same guns.

Blackpowder Burn · May 22, 2022, 09:46:46 PM

I've run many thousands of rounds of BP 44WCF ammo through my 24" Winchester/Miroku rifle with uniformly excellent results. My standard load is 32 grains of Olde Eynsford FFg under an Accurate 215 grain bullet. I'll shoot a 2 or 3 day 10 to 12 stage match with no cleaning and zero problems. Clean it afterwards with 4 or 5 patches using moose milk and a pull of a bore snake. The bore is still shiny. I'll never foul it's barrel with the new fad smokeless powders!

Cliff Fendley · May 29, 2022, 07:52:36 AM

Quote from: Blackpowder Burn on May 22, 2022, 09:46:46 PM
I've run many thousands of rounds of BP 44WCF ammo through my 24" Winchester/Miroku rifle with uniformly excellent results. My standard load is 32 grains of Olde Eynsford FFg under an Accurate 215 grain bullet. I'll shoot a 2 or 3 day 10 to 12 stage match with no cleaning and zero problems. Clean it afterwards with 4 or 5 patches using moose milk and a pull of a bore snake. The bore is still shiny. I'll never foul it's barrel with the new fad smokeless powders!

Is that the 43-215C mold? That is an awesome bullet, my favorite for 44wcf.

Blackpowder Burn · June 26, 2022, 06:31:36 PM

Cliff,

Yes, it is the 43-215C. I use it's cousin in my 38-40's.

I universally love anything made by Tom at Accurate Molds! I use his for all my pistol caliber (32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 44 Russian, 44 Colt, 44 Special, 45 Schofield, 45 Colt) and rifle caliber guns (38-55, 40-65, 45-75 and 45-70).

Coffinmaker · June 27, 2022, 08:10:37 AM

Nuisance Here)

I am agreement with Abilene and Pettifogger here. With perhaps a Caveat. For the last many Lustrum, I have only shot CAS. And in shooting CAS, I haven't messed with "long" range at all. However:

I once toted three of my CAS rifles, all 45 Colt, out to the range with the appropriate number of empty (specified) Pizza Boxes to establish some accuracy information. After running about 50 rounds thru each, A '73, A "66 and Henry, I observed the group size, group position relating to point of aim and all that paper punching nonsense.

My conclusion was thus. Everything I shot grouped at the least, into minute of pie plate out to 50 yards. Hence, since I regularly shoot at 14 X 18 inch targets, the information acquired was actually useless Trivia. Moot point if you will. I wasn't missing rifle targets before I went paper punching, and don't miss rifle targets after paper punching. Of course, since my recovery from a debilitating Bench Rest addiction many Lustrum ago, paper punching has held no real interest. Burma Shave.

People are still Contagious. Avoid Them

Dave T · June 27, 2022, 12:38:56 PM

I'm with the Coffinmaker on this one. I haven't shot a bench, sandbag, or other wise rested group with either of the Miroku '73s I have. I can't do CAS anymore because of disability problems. For the same reason I'll never go hunting again either. I'm trying to relive the 19th Century experience of shooting these copies with ammo that duplicates the original ballistic performance of the BP 44 WCF.

My test for accuracy and sighting in with the latest one, a Saddle Ring Carbine, was to put up a 10" steel plate at 50 yards and try to hit it. Why 10"? Because I can't see the sights all that well anymore, although the SRC front sight is easier to see than the standard rifle front. And because, again with the disability, I can't hold all that steady. Point being, with the first 5 shots I hit it 3 times and called the 2 misses. The guy with me, who's about 10 years younger and that much steadier, hit it 5 for 5. Don't need to put it on paper. It will do if I can. I might even put up a 6" plate I have and try that one...on a good day. (smile)

Dave