Early CVA Mountain Rifles: Sort of authentic?

[Niederlander]

Gentlemen,  Are the early CVA Mountain Rifles sort of authentic?  Not saying I want to buy one or anything, but I've noticed when looking at different rifles that the CVA ones with two wedges, German Silver nose cap, etc. look a lot more authentic than the T/C's, Investarms, etc.  The major detractor I see is the patch box.  Who actually built them, and what sort of quality were they?

[Kent Shootwell]

CVA has always made a inexpensive guns, this one is one of the less poorly made ones. I d call it a half stock rifle and having two wedges doesn't make it a Hawken anymore then four tires makes a car a Corvette.
I ve seen a few original rifles from the 1800s that are nearly dead ringers for a TC but they aren't  Hawkins either. Take a look at the thread on California rifles , there's one pictured that shows this.

[Niederlander]

In doing some research I found there was already a thread here on the CVA Mountain Rifles.  Would still appreciate comments, though.

[Niederlander]

CVA has always made a inexpensive guns, this one is one of the less poorly made ones. I%u2019d call it a half stock rifle and having two wedges doesn%u2019t make it a Hawken anymore then four tires makes a car a Corvette.
I%u2019ve seen a few original rifles from the 1800s that are nearly dead ringers for a TC but they aren%u2019t Hawkins either. Take a look at the thread on California rifles , there%u2019s one pictured that shows this

They don't necessarily need to be Hawkens.  There were many rifles in the west made by others than Hawken and the other common makers.  I'm just asking if they're a somewhat authentic rifle for the time period.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy ML fans,

The CVA Mountain Rifle went through some transitions. The first models were made in Spain with some odd type of "walnut" stock and a rough rifled barrel. Then the guns were transitioned to a US made maple stock and a unique form of rifled barrel. The locks, set triggers and hardware were all made in Spain. These guns (especially as well made kits) were really good shooters. They even won a special "grudge" match at the NMLRA championships one year. I know this because I was in charge of the Mountain Rifle upgrade program at CVA at the time. Incidentally, the original CVA Mountain Rifle prototype was created by the respected gun builder: Don Kammerer and production models followed his design very faithfully.   

Later guns were assembled in Spain. I can't speak to those as I had moved on at that time. Those Maple stocked guns were a great value at the time and were good shooters after the lock and triggers were properly tuned.

Rev. Chase

[Kent Shootwell]

Well they are muzzleloaders, and there were plenty of rifles that served well of the basic type. When the term %u201Cmountain rifle %u201C is added then that generally denotes a robust rifle intended for use in the frontier for large and longer range. That%u2019s what many of us think of nowadays. Looking at the CVA mountain rifle on its own is a different prospective. The parts weren%u2019t made to stand the hard conditions of those days. For the modern man that shoots for entertainment it%u2019s fine. The fit and finish of the parts is exceptable for the money spent. Design details like the parts of the lock are short cuts. To get a rifle to hunt deer and such it will do the job. For club match%u2019s they do well on the targets. I%u2019ve worked on a fair number of CVAs so have developed enough knowledge of them to recommend other brands in general. The Lyman Great Plains rifle for example. They to need a bit of work to reach their full potential but aren%u2019t priced much higher. That%u2019s my take on it and you got your full money%u2019s worth! 
Now I see Rev. Chase has added his fine knowledge to help, a good thing too!
And what%u2019s with all these extra stuff in the text!

[Cap'n Redneck]

@ Mr. Shootwell:  looks like Your apostrophies are turning into catastrophies...! 

[Kent Shootwell]

Sure does! I don't think computers are my friend.

[Niederlander]

Many of us are in the same boat, my friend!

[Niederlander]

Well they are muzzleloaders, and there were plenty of rifles that served well of the basic type. When the term %u201Cmountain rifle %u201C is added then that generally denotes a robust rifle intended for use in the frontier for large and longer range. That%u2019s what many of us think of nowadays. Looking at the CVA mountain rifle on its own is a different prospective. The parts weren%u2019t made to stand the hard conditions of those days. For the modern man that shoots for entertainment it%u2019s fine. The fit and finish of the parts is exceptable for the money spent. Design details like the parts of the lock are short cuts. To get a rifle to hunt deer and such it will do the job. For club match%u2019s they do well on the targets. I%u2019ve worked on a fair number of CVAs so have developed enough knowledge of them to recommend other brands in general. The Lyman Great Plains rifle for example. They to need a bit of work to reach their full potential but aren%u2019t priced much higher. That%u2019s my take on it and you got your full money%u2019s worth! 
Now I see Rev. Chase has added his fine knowledge to help, a good thing too!
And what%u2019s with all these extra stuff in the text!

Would most of the problems been with the locks?  Triggers?  Everything?

[Kent Shootwell]

The locks then triggers then wood. The barrels are generally good but the way they're breached often cause miss fires or hang fires. On a muzzleloader forum I'm on these same issues come up often. As can be expected they have their fans that will defend them and offer all the ways to get past these issues. I don't own any stock in the company I just tinker on guns a lot. Many of you have seen my work here but that doesn't make me the expert on anything. Just sharing my experience for the low, low cost of free. Take it or leave it won't change my drinking habits! 

[Kent Shootwell]

I think I discovered the problem, if I edit my poorly written post then all those extra symbols show up!

[Niederlander]

I would think changing to an L & R lock would help quite a bit, if it fits.  Can the breeching be fixed, or are thy just screwed?  (To put it bluntly.)

[Baltimore Ed]

Always thought that the Lyman Plains Rifle was a good looking ml. Always wanted one but then I got out of black powder. Didn't Browning offer a ml at one time. Got the beginnings of a full stock underhammer in the closet.

[Kent Shootwell]

Rebreeching a CVA / Traditions rifle means rebarreling it. They are made to never be disassembled. Costs start climbing fast. An L&R lock is better and costs some where over $160 then a bit of fitting it is often needed. For those that like the hard way to have a rifle that could be sold used for about $300 it's one way to get there. The Lyman GPR even if costing a little bit more is cheaper to own and operate.
There was a Browning Mountain rifle that can be found for more money but parts for the lock are beyond my ability to find. The lock is odd and becomes harder to cock as you pull it back. I fixed one last year by making the part that was needed, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
Did you already buy the rifle in question?

[Niederlander]

Nope.  Just researching options.  I wouldn't mind a Lyman.  Did the CVA not have a hooked breech?

[Niederlander]

By the way, I used to have a Browning Mountain Rifle, and I wasn't impressed with the quality of the lock.  Probably would have kept it if an L & R lock had been available for it.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Again ML fans,

To respond to a few comments, but not to disagree, the somewhat circuitous route of the ignition channel was created to streamline production (read cut costs) by installing the "snail" tube without either the nipple hole and the interior hole in the bottom of the breech. Both holes were drilled after the tube was securely in place to be precisely aligned. I never had ignition problems with the design, but can see how some might have experienced a problem especially if they didn't use the clean out screw regularly.

Yes the guns did have a hooked breech. When I used to put on seminars for outdoor writers teaching them how to load and shoot the guns, I would end up in the motel room with half a dozen very filthy guns to clean. Popped out the barrel wedges and put the breech end of the barrel in the toilet and pumped away. That hooked breech was a blessing. Also after i left the company, I vowed to never shoot BP again. (one of the few vows I have been able to keep.)

The locks were what you get for the money. The same with the triggers; however, few people really understand how to properly set up and adjust double set triggers.

Rev. Chase

[Tascosa Joe]

I had one of the earlier ones, it shot great, I never had ignition problems with it.  I did a few cosmetic changes to make it look more period.  Good rifle, IMO but it has been gone a long time.

[Kent Shootwell]

Ah, the old put the breech in the toilet trick! I used to do that with my double barrel muzzleloader till the wife figured out how the bowl was getting scratched up. Worked great , just flush for clean water! That was near 50 years ago and she still keeps a close eye on me, smart gal.