How Are You Loading For Original 1887 12g

[Rube Burrows]

Would love to hear how you are loading for an original 1887 12g shotgun.

I have not been able to find a ton of info on the net about it. Just curious what yall are doing?

I know its a black powder gun. If you are loading light smokeless loads what powder are you using? 

[Dave T]

The standard recipe for BP shotgun shells is to get or make a dipper that holds the weight of shot you want, like 1-1/8 oz or maybe 1-1/4 oz.  Then use that same dipper for the same volume of black powder.  I've always loaded FFg in 12 ga.

Dump the powder in the shell, seat an over powder wad (thin) then a cushion wad (thicker).  Dump the shot in next and set an over shot, card wad on that.  Glue it in with something like Elmer's Glue, at least that's what I always use.  And this is in brass 12 ga shells.  I've heard you can do a roll crimp on paper or plastic shells to hold the over shot wad in place, but I have no experience with that.

If you have an 1887 shotgun it probably has Demascus barrels I would not load smokeless powder.  You may hear a lot of people say Demascus is fine with light loads but unless that gun has been in your family since the 1880s you have no idea how it was treated or what was fired in it over the last 114 years.  Be safe and load black powder...and that only after it's been inspected by a competent gunsmith.

Good luck and welcome to the world of black powder cartridge.

Dave

[Rube Burrows]

The standard recipe for BP shotgun shells is to get or make a dipper that holds the weight of shot you want, like 1-1/8 oz or maybe 1-1/4 oz.  Then use that same dipper for the same volume of black powder.  I've always loaded FFg in 12 ga.

Dump the powder in the shell, seat an over powder wad (thin) then a cushion wad (thicker).  Dump the shot in next and set an over shot, card wad on that.  Glue it in with something like Elmer's Glue, at least that's what I always use.  And this is in brass 12 ga shells.  I've heard you can do a roll crimp on paper or plastic shells to hold the over shot wad in place, but I have no experience with that.

If you have an 1887 shotgun it probably has Demascus barrels I would not load smokeless powder.  You may hear a lot of people say Demascus is fine with light loads but unless that gun has been in your family since the 1880s you have no idea how it was treated or what was fired in it over the last 114 years.  Be safe and load black powder...and that only after it's been inspected by a competent gunsmith.

Good luck and welcome to the world of black powder cartridge.

Dave

Thanks. I have shot black powder in revolvers and rifles but I have never had a shotgun that I have loaded up for it. I recently purchased an original 1887 and I am planning to pick up some brass shells for it and enjoy it.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dave T has posted good advice. Equal volumes of powder & shot are recommended and an excellent recipe for hunting & Trap. but I load down to about 60% of the volume of powder for regular CAS use. The usual powder for the 12 ga. is 2Fg. More powder than equal volume is a waste of powder.

In days of yor, the standard 12 gauge load was 1 1/8 oz of shot. 1 1/4 oz was a 10 gauge load. With the price of components these days, I'd stick with this if I didn't drop the 12 gauge load to one ounce. (The standard 16 gauge load.)

Choke factors in as well. (For CAS use, most targets fail to drop due to wide & thin patterns or misplaced patterns.)
More powder = wider pattern.
Smaller shot = wider pattern.
faster powder = wider pattern. (3Fg rather than 2Fg - but drop the load a bit, or at least avoid firewall loads.)

[Rube Burrows]

Dave T has posted good advice. Equal volumes of powder & shot are recommended and an excellent recipe for hunting & Trap. but I load down to about 60% of the volume of powder for regular CAS use. The usual powder for the 12 ga. is 2Fg. More powder than equal volume is a waste of powder.

In days of yor, the standard 12 gauge load was 1 1/8 oz of shot. 1 1/4 oz was a 10 gauge load. With the price of components these days, I'd stick with this if I didn't drop the 12 gauge load to one ounce. (The standard 16 gauge load.)

Choke factors in as well. (For CAS use, most targets fail to drop due to wide & thin patterns or misplaced patterns.)
More powder = wider pattern.
Smaller shot = wider pattern.
faster powder = wider pattern. (3Fg rather than 2Fg - but drop the load a bit, or at least avoid firewall loads.)

Thank you for the info. Having never loaded for a shotgun I am reading up on things. I have some brass hulls ordered, fiber wads and overshot cards. I have a few cans of 3FG but need to order some 2FG. Since this one is original I want to make sure I keep it right for the gun so that I may enjoy it for years to come.

[Cap'n Redneck]

For the thin-walled all-brass 12ga. shotgun cases (MagTech/CBC) You'll want 11ga. over-powder cards, cushion-wads, and over-shot cards.

For CAS-loads I use a thick 10ga. over-powder card in place of the thin 11ga. over-shot card.
I rough-up the inside case-mouth of the new cases with a piece of fine sandpaper, and the 10ga. card sits put during recoil with no crimp or glue needed. 
(It needs to be entered into the case on its edge, and then spun flat and seated with a suitable short-starter.)

Note that for hunting-loads it is recommended to use a thin over-shot card, and they need to be glued or crimped in place.

I would personally advise against roll-crimping all-brass shotgun shells.  It will adversely affect case life.

[Jubal Starbuck]

You will want to shorten your shells to fit the short chambers found on original Winchester 1887 shotguns.  I just cut AA's or whatever I had on hand off below the crimp fold with a Dremel disc. I have an old hand roll crimper that I use to put a roll crimp on them. I used FFg and fiber wads to adjust the length. I only loaded the shells once then pitched 'em, as they usually have burn holes after one use. Usually mark the shot size on the over shot wad.

[Rube Burrows]

For the thin-walled all-brass 12ga. shotgun cases (MagTech/CBC) You'll want 11ga. over-powder cards, cushion-wads, and over-shot cards.

For CAS-loads I use a thick 10ga. over-powder card in place of the thin 11ga. over-shot card.
I rough-up the inside case-mouth of the new cases with a piece of fine sandpaper, and the 10ga. card sits put during recoil with no crimp or glue needed. 
(It needs to be entered into the case on its edge, and then spun flat and seated with a suitable short-starter.)

Note that for hunting-loads it is recommended to use a thin over-shot card, and they need to be glued or crimped in place.

I would personally advise against roll-crimping all-brass shotgun shells.  It will adversely affect case life.

Good information. Thanks.

[Rube Burrows]

You will want to shorten your shells to fit the short chambers found on original Winchester 1887 shotguns.  I just cut AA's or whatever I had on hand off below the crimp fold with a Dremel disc. I have an old hand roll crimper that I use to put a roll crimp on them. I used FFg and fiber wads to adjust the length. I only loaded the shells once then pitched 'em, as they usually have burn holes after one use. Usually mark the shot size on the over shot wad.

I'll keep this in mind if I ever use plastic shotshell hulls.

[Coffinmaker]

  OK, HIYA RUBE   

I tried this once and it just went POOF    Anyway first up:

PLUS ONE for Cap'n Redneck.  First CAVEAT:  I am loading for a pair of Hammer Doubles, NOT for a Repeater.

Second CAVEAT:  I am loading for playing CAS . . NOT for war in the trenches so I load light.

The RECIPE:  12GA Magtech hulls > about 40Gr by weight 2F APP > Ballistic Products "Spitfire" wad with 1 Ounce shot cup > Scoop of shot to fill the Shot Cup > Two Over-Shot cards with no glue or stick-um.  Everything stays together during recoil (DO NOT drop them on concrete)

I also DO NOT recommend any crimp.  Shortens case life and the crimp DOES NOT come out on firing.  Stays.  Makes it a ROYAL PITA to re-load.

I use  LEE Classic Single Stage with an RCBS Die and Shell Holder for 12Ga Brassies for De-Priming and Re-Priming.  Everything else by hand.  I have NEVER had to resize any of my hulls unless some Ham Hock stepped on one.  Boo Hissssss.  I add this as I had lots of Fail-to-Fire when priming on a flat surface.  Didn't go well.

Play Safe Out There

[Rube Burrows]

  OK, HIYA RUBE   

I tried this once and it just went POOF    Anyway first up:

PLUS ONE for Cap'n Redneck.  First CAVEAT:  I am loading for a pair of Hammer Doubles, NOT for a Repeater.

Second CAVEAT:  I am loading for playing CAS . . NOT for war in the trenches so I load light.

The RECIPE:  12GA Magtech hulls > about 40Gr by weight 2F APP > Ballistic Products "Spitfire" wad with 1 Ounce shot cup > Scoop of shot to fill the Shot Cup > Two Over-Shot cards with no glue or stick-um.  Everything stays together during recoil (DO NOT drop them on concrete)

I also DO NOT recommend any crimp.  Shortens case life and the crimp DOES NOT come out on firing.  Stays.  Makes it a ROYAL PITA to re-load.

I use  LEE Classic Single Stage with an RCBS Die and Shell Holder for 12Ga Brassies for De-Priming and Re-Priming.  Everything else by hand.  I have NEVER had to resize any of my hulls unless some Ham Hock stepped on one.  Boo Hissssss.  I add this as I had lots of Fail-to-Fire when priming on a flat surface.  Didn't go well.

Play Safe Out There

No plans to crimp. I have seen and read that enough to get that point. Seems like with the right overshot cards and wads its not needed anyways. Thanks for the load information. The supplies along with the shotgun should be here by the end of the week. Looking forward to getting to this and shooting the old shotgun.

[Cap'n Redneck]

Something to be aware of:

Some years ago I was considering buying an original 1887 in 12ga.
This specific gun had been modified for CAS-shooting by having its barrel shortened, and most importantly; it had undergone some internal Dremel-work to facilitate the so-called "Drop Two" speed re-load.
 
The rear portion of the chamber at the 6 o'clock position had been ground off to form a sort of feeding-ramp.  Not unlike what You'd see on the rear end of the barrel of a Colt 1911 pistol. 
Anyone who has been shooting (too) hot .45 ACP loads by intent or accident will notice that the cases quickly develop a "pot belly" where they are unsupported at the 6 o'clock position.  With the "solid head" .45 ACP cases this is a warning that You are about to exceed the tensile strength of the brass. 

In a "race-modified" 1887 this will only work okay as long as You stick to modern "solid head" plastic or paper hulls.  Once You switch to the old style "balloon head" all-brass cases the thin walls might burst at the first firing and leave You in a world of hurt.

Do check that the cartridge case is supported "all around the clock" at the rear end of the chamber before firing all-brass shotgun shells in the gun.  If in doubt: consult a competent gunsmith.

(I decided to pass on the "race-modified" 1887, and I advised the seller on what I had discovered.
Nevertheless I feel that the specific gun should have had a warning engraved on the receiver...) 

[Rube Burrows]

Something to be aware of:

Some years ago I was considering buying an original 1887 in 12ga.
This specific gun had been modified for CAS-shooting by having its barrel shortened, and most importantly; it had undergone some internal Dremel-work to facilitate the so-called "Drop Two" speed re-load.
 
The rear portion of the chamber at the 6 o'clock position had been ground off to form a sort of feeding-ramp.  Not unlike what You'd see on the rear end of the barrel of a Colt 1911 pistol. 
Anyone who has been shooting (too) hot .45 ACP loads by intent or accident will notice that the cases quickly develop a "pot belly" where they are unsupported at the 6 o'clock position.  With the "solid head" .45 ACP cases this is a warning that You are about to exceed the tensile strength of the brass. 

In a "race-modified" 1887 this will only work okay as long as You stick to modern "solid head" plastic or paper hulls.  Once You switch to the old style "balloon head" all-brass cases the thin walls might burst at the first firing and leave You in a world of hurt.

Do check that the cartridge case is supported "all around the clock" at the rear end of the chamber before firing all-brass shotgun shells in the gun.  If in doubt: consult a competent gunsmith.

(I decided to pass on the "race-modified" 1887, and I advised the seller on what I had discovered.
Nevertheless I feel that the specific gun should have had a warning engraved on the receiver...)

I know exactly what you mean and have read about it in the 1911s. I don't think this one has been modified in any ways other than being reblued at some point. I'll definitely keep that in mind and double check when it arrives.

[Coffinmaker]

  Hy Guys   

Just as a general observation, based on my humble (NOT) opinion, many of my fellow Gunplumbers are all too willing to turn really nice shotgun into JUNQUE!!  When I still had my shingle out, there were modifications I refused.  For just the reason cited by the Cap'n.  My other pet peeve is/was the funneling of the breach end of double guns to "speed" the reload.  After funneling, no shotgunner, other than a CAS shooter will touch the gun.

I often got customers with a Double, they had Dremel'd the breaches and removed the rim shelf, turning the gun into a 3D wall hanger.  Suck it up Buttercup

Play Safe Out There

[Abilene]

... Usually mark the shot size on the over shot wad.

Yeah, commercial shotshells used to mark the shot size on the overshot card.  I mark mine a little differently.  Just a little message to the bad guy target before he gets sent to his reward, "no hard feelings."   

[Mogorilla]

Love the smiley faces.   Will be stealing that.   I mimic what Captain Redneck does, but I am loading for a hammered side by side.   i opted to buy Rocky Mountain Cartridge 12 gauge shells.   They will outlive me, and I am hoping for another 30+ years.   

[Rube Burrows]

Yeah, commercial shotshells used to mark the shot size on the overshot card.  I mark mine a little differently.  Just a little message to the bad guy target before he gets sent to his reward, "no hard feelings."   

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Coffinmaker may correct me, but I do not thing there is a "light" smokeless load for what well may be a damascus  barrel.
Stay on the safe and  dark side just shoot the black stuff or APP
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

  All righty dighty 

I have a rubber stamp on the end of a 3/4 stick.  The stamp is of a Coffin.

There is often a fight about the safety of Damascus Barrel shotguns.  I am of the opinion there are very few "safe" ones.  The majority are Belgian made "trade" guns or US made "budget" guns.  The pressure curve of Smokeless is far different that the pressure curve of BP.  Simple fact. There is no telling the amount of stresses and separation from rust and corrosion these guns have.

I will acknowledge there are a bundle of British/London Bespoke guns I'd shoot inna heartbeat . . . With Brass Hulls and BP.  I personally wouldn't shoot ANY Damascus shotguns with Smokeless.  PERIOD.

Play Safe Out There

[Rube Burrows]

Coffinmaker may correct me, but I do not thing there is a "light" smokeless load for what well may be a damascus  barrel.
Stay on the safe and  dark side just shoot the black stuff or APP
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

I don't believe the barrels on this 87 are Damascus. I will check it better once it comes in though. That said, I am planning to only shoot BP now with this one to be on the safe side.