.45 ACP in moonclips in a spare cylinder for a Schofield.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Virginia Gentleman,

I can testify to the deleterious use of standard .45 ACP in a Webley ... I used to use it and the gun would jam .... a friendly gunsmith who was not that familiar with Webleys thought that the tips of the gears on the cylinders were worn down ... so he tig welded new tips onto the cylinder gears (and he did a GREAT job)... and over the years it has progressively jammed sooner ... down now to every other cylinder ... but opening up the action unjams it and I can fire about another six rounds or less and it is time to open the action again ... and each set of six rounds makes the number of rounds fired before needing opening less.

I have ordered a set of 100 .45 Auto Rim brass and my reloading friend is going to load it at whatever I wish ... so what would be the best black powder load and the best bullet to have them loaded up with?

[Virginia Gentleman]

Sorry but I only shoot mine with smokeless loads and don't use blackpowder in my Mark V and Mark VI Webleys.  I think if you got the gunsmith to fix the gun again and only shot downloaded .45 Auto-Rim in the gun it would last a lot longer this time around.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

As Willie was fond of saying, 'Thierin lies the rub'...

What exactly is a 'downloaded Auto Rim load'? My friend asked me what amount/load of Goex I wanted and what size/shape of bullet I wanted to have the Auto Rim casings loaded with ... I had to tell him that I hadn't a clue ...

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

WWE;  I found that Bullseye was my best bet for smokeless.  It worked well with RCBS-201 KT (truncated cone/semi wadcutter) and the big lyman .45 Keith type bullet at about 280 gr.  The difference in POI was dramatic. (Heavy = higher, light = lower). As my frontsight seemed a bit low the 201 hit closer to POA so thats what I stuck with.  If you have a bullet weight that hits close to home it will probably do the same with blackpowder.  I have a 155 grain hollow base mould that was origionally designed for percussion use, and not made anymore.  It gave the BEST groups, as long as I selected bullets with perfectly filled out skirts.

For BP loads use the BP charge selection criteria.  With the bullet you select, put in enough FFFg to allow some compression.

I don't think I am allowed to state my loads, and I have to look up my records anyway, but PM me if you want the details.

[Virginia Gentleman]

With a 250 or 255 lead bullet try 3.5-3.7 grains of Clays powder (NOT Universal Clays) in a Remington or Starline .45 Auto-Rim case.  What possible advantage is there trying to use blackpowder in a case and gun that was designed around smokeless powder.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

  What possible advantage is there trying to use blackpowder in a case and gun that was designed around smokeless powder.

BUT of a distinguished lineage with blackpowder, both from the revolver design and the cartridge origins.  The .450 Revolver cartridge dates from 1868.  Cordite only entered the picture in 1894 in the .455 Mk I cartridge.  My experience with military issue Mk II ammo was hopeless.

In my experience Mk I loads work very well with both real and fad powders, but for an authentic Victorian era experience you can't beat the Holy Black!

[Virginia Gentleman]

I'm sure someone could come up with a 45 Auto-Rim low pressure black powder load, but why?  The .45 Auto-Rim is a smokeless cartridge and so was the Mark II .455 Webley cartridge meant for the Webley Mark VI.  The best ammo selection for this "shaved cylinder" Webley is to feed it low pressure 650-720 fps with 250-270 grain lead bullets in a .45 Auto-Rim case with an appropriate smokeless powder charge.  If you wanted to look for black powder data, try using the short cased .45 Cowboy that is almost idendical to the .45 Auto-Rim except for the enlarged rim of the latter.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I'm sure someone could come up with a 45 Auto-Rim low pressure black powder load, but why?  The .45 Auto-Rim is a smokeless cartridge and so was the Mark II .455 Webley cartridge meant for the Webley Mark VI.  The best ammo selection for this "shaved cylinder" Webley is to feed it low pressure 650-720 fps with 250-270 grain lead bullets in a .45 Auto-Rim case with an appropriate smokeless powder charge.  If you wanted to look for black powder data, try using the short cased .45 Cowboy that is almost idendical to the .45 Auto-Rim except for the enlarged rim of the latter.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

WHY?  Because it is fun, and a way to recreate the Victorian era.

The Mk II case was an abortion conceived as a compromise.  I find compromise useful, but not here.  IMHO

An appropriate smokeless load?  I have nothing against smokeless and use it often, but it is not usually a challenge, just useful.

Look to .45 CS for BP loads.  Right on.  Thats pretty much what we are doing

[Virginia Gentleman]

The Webley Mark VI was made long after the West was won and was never shot with Mark I blackpowder cartridges.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Virginia Gentleman,

What Sir Charles is tying to do is protect me a bit ... I am on a fixed income and cannot afford reloading gear at this time.

Another SASS friend reloads for me at about half the cost of new shells.

The only problem is that I can have the casings reloaded with any powder I want, as long as what I want is Goex.  It is the only powder he uses and hence the questions about black powder Auto Rim charges for a Webley.  Not the best situation as you point out, but it is what it is, and no historical data about my 1916 Webley Mk VI is going to change the choices I must make.

Perhaps when I get my own reloading gear I will go with a smokeless powder. But until then I will buy what is affordable and available.

And, as Paul Harvey used to say, that is the story behind the story ...

[Virginia Gentleman]

If it is economics in cost per shot even with a modest or really small investment in Lee equipment for handloading dies and all, the first 8 or so boxes of ammo would pay back the cost of the equipment and components.  One of the main reasons I got into handloading was to shoot more for less money.  That $30.00 box of ammo could be loaded for about $7.00 or less. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

If it is economics in cost per shot even with a modest or really small investment in Lee equipment for handloading dies and all, the first 8 or so boxes of ammo would pay back the cost of the equipment and components.  One of the main reasons I got into handloading was to shoot more for less money.  That $30.00 box of ammo could be loaded for about $7.00 or less. 

I have gone through the economics including catalogue links to the LEE Handpress, etc.  I'm glad to see that being helpful to our Pards is the Prime Directive.  WWE's personal decision is his alone.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,34021.msg439624.html#msg439624

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Thanks Sir Charles,


I agree with both of you  .... and in August when I am officially as Senior Citizen and on the Social Security 'dole', one of my goals is to find a lightly used set of Lee Loaders on the classified ... it is just not in the budget now ....

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

IMHO the Lee Loader is a waste of your limited funds.  The LEE Handpress is almost as cheap, takes regular dies, and is so useful you will always be using it even if you did win a lottery.

[Virginia Gentleman]

When those Gommin't checks come in for a few dollars more you might consider the Lee Anniversary Kit and some dies as it has virtually everything you need to get started in handloading. Buy a cheaper case tumbler to shine the brass, powder, a loading manual/data, bullets and primers and you are off to the races!

[PJ Hardtack]

I recall a time when you couldn't give away a Webley in .455 and yet you could still find 'Dominion' ammo on the shelves all over the place!
Then it became fashionable to 'Bubba' the cylinders to accept .45 AR and .45 ACP in 1/2 () clips. Like someone said - "mutilation", and inexcusable today with the availability of .455 brass. My first .455 brass was cut down and trimmed .45 Colt brass and I still shoot it. Outlasts original balloon headed 'Dominion' by a huge margin.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

PJ,

I happen to own a a vry nice Webley Mk VI ...the only problem is that it was already 'mutilated'.

So I ordered some .45 AR casings and I have a friend who tells me that he will load them up to whatever charge and bullet I like.

So could you PM me and let me know what powder charges and size bullet works best for you?
Thanks!

[Virginia Gentleman]

For about $20.00 your friend could buy a pound or so of suitable smokeless powder, like Alliant Clays and load it with a 250-255 grain lead bullet in the .45 Auto-Rim case with a 3.6-3.8 grains of Clays powder.  Works well in my Webley Mk VI even with 452" sized bullets, groups tighten a bit with .454-.455" sized bullets.

Send him this information and he should be able to get things going.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

VG,

Thanks!

[PJ Hardtack]

My Tranter shoots 5.2/Unique and 5/Tite Group quite well, both with 250RN.

I'd prefer to have a HB bullet design, one I can fill with BP lube and eventually will.