Clothing question

[Bristow Kid]

Where bib overalls common in and after 1887?  Where they worn buy cowboys or just sodbusters train conductors and miners?  Would they be NCOWS legal appearal?  Any help is much appreciated.

[Chantilly]

Here some info for you -

www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/patc/overalls/

Their origins are murky, but overalls date back to the 18th century and were first called "slops," according to costume historian Sandra Ros Altman.

At first, they weren't very comfortable and people who wore them were looked down upon, says Nan Enstad, an American history professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. "They didn't fit well, they were made of coarse and durable cloth, they were cheap, and they definitely marked the status of the people who wore them," she says. "They were low-status clothing and carried a stigma."

But darts and custom pockets for watches, rulers and pens were added and in a sign of their popularity overalls became among the first mass produced clothing. By the mid-1800s, the colors were standardized -- painters and plasterers wore white overalls, farmers wore blue or brown. Railway workers sported a variety of pinstripes.

"Dirty work called for angled pockets and hardy denim," Ulaby reports. "Carpenters added the hammer loop. Sturdy buckles and vest backs made overalls ideal for industry."

Use of the word "overall" was applied to different styles = what we call "jeans" today were referred to as "waist overalls" into the first half of the 20th century -  bib overalls are still bib overalls.

From
http://www.levistrauss.com/about/history/denim.htm

Fabric - demin and jeans -
As denim moved across the Atlantic in the late 18th century, American textile mills started to produce their own denim fabric on a small scale, mostly as a way to become independent from foreign producers (mainly the English). From the very beginning, cotton fabrics were an important component of American mills' product line. A factory in the state of Massachusetts wove both denim and jean. American President George Washington toured this mill in 1789 and was shown the machinery that wove denim. That same year, one of the first printed references to the word "denim" in the United States appeared: a Rhode Island newspaper reported on the local production of denim among other fabrics. The book "The Weavers Draft Book and Clothiers Assistant," published in 1792, contains technical sketches of the weaving methods for a variety of denims. In 1864, an East Coast wholesale house advertised that it carried 10 different kinds of denim, including "New Creek Blues" and "Madison River Browns," terms that still sound contemporary today. Webster's Dictionary from the same year contained the word "denim," referring to it as "a coarse cotton drilling used for overalls, etc."Research shows that jean and denim were two very different fabrics in 19th century America. They also differed in how they were used. In 1849, a New York clothing manufacturer advertised topcoats, vests or short jackets in chestnut, olive, black, white and blue jean. Fine trousers were offered in blue jean; overalls and trousers made for work were offered in blue and fancy denim. Other American advertisements show working men wearing clothing that illustrates this difference in jean and denim usage. Mechanics and painters wore overalls made of blue denim. Working men in general, including those not engaged in manual labor, wore more tailored trousers made of jean. Denim, then, seems to have been reserved for work clothes, when both durability and comfort were needed. Jean was a sturdy fabric, but it did not offer the added benefits of denim, such as durability and comfort.

In the 1875 Wards Catalogue (no illustrations)

2 pairs Blue Denim Overalls...1.50 (also list brown and unbleached duck) - I would bet these are waist overalls.

I don't find bib overalls in the 1895 Wards or the 1897 Sears Roebuck Catalogues - just looking quickly - they could be there and I missed them.

[Chantilly]

There is a photo with a cowboy in what appears to be bib overalls in the "Researching Photographs" thread - take a look

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/1shiftchange1880s.jpg

I've seen a few other photos with miners in bib overalls.  None of the photos were very detailed but it looked like the earliest bib overalls were pretty plain - i.e. pocketless - more like an apron bib.  Pockets and loops were added over time.

[Bristow Kid]

Thank ya much Chantilly.  I am sure when I take the time to check all the links you gave it will prove to be very useful.  Much obliged

[Chantilly]

Here's a picture from Pioneer Women Voices From the Kansas Prairie by Joanna L Stratton.  Caption of the photo says "A pioneer family poses with the covered wagon that brought them safety to Johnson County Kansas."  The photo is not dated but I'd say some time in the 1890's based on the sleeve design of the woman's dress -

[Bristow Kid]

Thanks again Chantilly

[Ozark Tracker]

Poeticcowboy,  I agree with Chantilly, pockets were probally added as time passed,  In the photo below, my grandmothers uncle, his overalls have one pocket and this picture was taken in 1910

[Bristow Kid]

Thanks Tracker

[Chantilly]

I've been looking through photos...I know I have some of miners in overalls somewhere.  I have not found those yet BUT I did find several other photos dated 1906 to 1914 that looked much like the photo posted by Ozark Tracker.  

[St. George]

What you choose to portray will also have a bearing on 'how' you portray it - so study the topic a bit.

Different social groups had their own 'uniform' - instantly recognizable by others.

Bib overalls were 'generally' worn by Miners, Trainmen and the like - working men who didn't make their living off the back of a horse.

Just as the Cowboy could be identified as to his 'home range'  by his hat and spurs - so could the others in his world.

Food for thought...

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

Reading the memoirs of cowboys one find mention of bibs from time to time, but the ones who wore them were looked down on and for the most part I think it was that way.  but you see them now and then in photos, most often on an older man.  I often figured horse wrangler, or maybe the odd jobs man.  Then I found this one, the links change so you'll have to do a search:



http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award98/nbhihtml/pshome.html

Do the search "branding a maverick"

The picture titled "Skinng a brand on a Maverick" (meaning slipping one on)

Bring it up all the way by clicking on the larger image button under the full screen picture.

Yes that is a pair of bibs that hook in the back, note two rear pockets and the pliers pocket and the side button.  An older man, but a freind who is a tack historian said that is the latest stye saddle for the time, not more than a year or two old and look at the quality of the horse, most likely not a rank amatur, most likely the boss or other top hand.  Like today, the young who are out to prove themself need to be showy, the older guys who was doing the job when the youngsters were not even born, tend not to have to show off.  If you wear bibs in my opinion you are either a rank greenhorn or you are very good and don't care what the kids think.  I don't think many of us can pull that off with a cowboy perrsonna.

[Bristow Kid]

Thanks alot Delmonico that answered alot of my questions.  Much obliged for the information

[Ol Gabe]

Although Hollywierd normally doesn't get it right clothing-wise, in the movie LONGRIDERS the charater played by Randy Quaid wore Bibs and they looked 'just right', worn, faded, loose. Other lesser known movies of the 1980's had characters wearing Bibs as well, one with Willy Nelson had his poor Farmer side-kick wearing them, yet another movie based on a Southwestern theme had the family men wearing them as they turned from Farmers into Vgilantes after getting rousted from their farm.
As mentioned above, your decision on which portrayal you chose will determine what you wear if you want to go that far into the personnae of it. For example, a Farmer personnae wearing a faded Chambrey shirt, loose and faded Bibs, leather-laced Brogans or low work shoes and a floppy hat with stains would fit nicely into the Working Cowboy Class of NCOWS shooting as he would only carry a single Revolver and a Rifle, with the Revolver in a loose bag over his shoulder along with the ammo, it would look very period-correct. However, that same-dressed Farmer would not look correct wearing 2 holstered Revolvers, a Pocket Pistol, dragging a Gun Cart with a Rifle and a Shotgun and all the ammo needed for all the above.
So, go with what feels comfortable to the level you want to reach and then change as-needed to fit whatever mood you desire.
Best regards and good researching!
'Ol Gabe

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy,

One guy in the KVC wears plain brown bibs.  IIRC, there is a pattern available and he made them.  James Country Muzzleloading carries lots and lots of patterns and probably can supply it to you.  They have a web site.  816-781-9473  They are in Liberty, MO just NE of KC, MO.

[Delmonico]

Myself if I wanted a pair, I would not go to that much work even though I do sew.  I'd buy a pair of the unwashed type and remove the pockets on the bib and maybe the hammer loop before I washed them.  A pattern and material are going to be close in price, not to count your time.

[DArchangel]

del, on that "skinning a brand" photo,look at his right pant leg. is he wearing pants under the bibs?

[St. George]

I looked, myself.

Looks like a pair of pants to me.

I guess they called 'em 'overalls' for a reason...

Going back - I'd still opine that social conformity would see far more compliance back then than today.

Advertising one's station in life had its advantages - plus a few disadvantages, I'd suppose - but cowboyin' was a 'romantic' occupation to many.

And yeah - sitting on a horse - at night - in the rain - without a slicker - soon caused a lot of that 'romance' to tone down - but you still couldn't tell that to a kid...

When building your Impression - look also to your actual age and physical traits and dress accordingly.

For many - that time period is a boon, since a healthy mid-section indicated success...;-)

And - and older guy can be a stock buyer or ramrod sent to do business for his Brand, or other substantial individual who had a 'position' of some variety.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Bristow Kid]

Well St.George, 
Well the reason I asked about bibs was cause I am a bigger guy and thought the bibs would be better for my size.  That and my persona is of a 2x4 rancher in 1887.  Not a nester but a rancher with a small spread with a few cattle and horses.  Figured he wouldnt have the money for fancy duds and would be looking more to function then fashion.

[Chantilly]

Great info here!  PC, keep in mind the social status and "rules" of that time period when you are thinking about what you are wanting to portray.  Think about what St George mentions about "station in life'.  MANY people of that time dressed "above their means" .   It was the socially correct thing to do.  Remember that this was the time of "the American Dream" and Horatio Alger.  How other people viewed your success was pretty important, part of the social structure and influenced the way others treated you.  Your persona who worked hard for his spread would want others to see him a success.  While he might wear bib overalls while laboring, he would more likely than not wear pants, shirt and coat at other times - especially in 1887 - just food for thought. 

Cheers!

Chantilly (who has a case of obssessive compulsive costuming disorder)   

By the way, I agree with Del - If you decide to go with bibs, removing pockets and loops from a modern pair of bibs is sound advice - Denim is a chore to sew and bibs are usually reasonably priced. Also note that many times in the earlier pictures of the "bibs", a very plain jacket was also worn (unless the person in the photo was engaged in labor when the photographer showed up).  That time period had pretty stringent rules about underclothing including shirts being "covered" - vests and jackets ruled. 

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy,

Denim is hard to sew.  The problem with modifying current bib overals is that even with the pockets and loop removed they are not like the ones before 1900.  The cut is different, the buttons are not right. the adjustment and fastners are different.  Maybe I'm just too picky.