Target accuracy rifle vs. carbine

[LonesomePigeon]

I am mostly asking this question about the Winchester-Miroku 1873 .44-40 but it could apply to any lever action rifle. For target shooting at 50 - 100 yards, and maybe out to 200 yards. Is there any difference in accuracy between a Sporting Rifle, a Short rifle and a Carbine? In particular the Carbine having the barrel bands, I have heard barrel bands can mess with accuracy?

[greyhawk]

I am mostly asking this question about the Winchester-Miroku 1873 .44-40 but it could apply to any lever action rifle. For target shooting at 50 - 100 yards, and maybe out to 200 yards. Is there any difference in accuracy between a Sporting Rifle, a Short rifle and a Carbine? In particular the Carbine having the barrel bands, I have heard barrel bands can mess with accuracy?

Any tube magazine gun can be (most are, a few not) prone to vertical stringing as the barrel heats from repeated shots
I would guess a carbine less so than a longer barrelled rifle - they are both tied together up front - and the carbine setup with shorter barrel a tad stiffer.
I am trying to work this problem out of a Uberti model 1876 without a lot of luck so far - have removed the front barrel band entirely with some improvement but its not cured.

If I can do my bit that rifle is capable of putting three blackpowder shots in an inch at 100yards but keep shooting and it marches up the target - not so bad now but stlll spreads the group to 2and a half inches or so mostly vertical (its not the load I am down to 10FPS xtreme spread on velocity)   

Have a model 94 commemorative in 38/55 that does not do this and shoots almost as well as the Uberti - magazine tube setup on the Winchester is a little different but luck of the draw mostly I think

Half magazine are better I think but I dont like the look of em. (not a proper cowboy gun  )

[ndnchf]

Sight radius makes a difference too.  That longer barrel give more distance between the front and rear sight. This provides finer position adjustment. Typically carbine sights are different than rifle sights too. Some work better than others.  Lastly, is a tang sight. From what I've seen (but not definitive) early carbines were not drilled and tapped for a tang sight, but rifles were.  The tang sight improves both focus and sight radius.   My humble opinion is yes, all other things being equal. a rifle will likely be more accurate than a carbine.

[greyhawk]

Sight radius makes a difference too.  That longer barrel give more distance between the front and rear sight. This provides finer position adjustment. Typically carbine sights are different than rifle sights too. Some work better than others.  Lastly, is a tang sight. From what I've seen (but not definitive) early carbines were not drilled and tapped for a tang sight, but rifles were.  The tang sight improves both focus and sight radius.   My humble opinion is yes, all other things being equal. a rifle will likely be more accurate than a carbine.

I agree! my pet lever guns are 24",26",26" 28" barrels- was just speaking to his specific question of barrel bands interfering with accuracy - my experience has been that a dovetailed magazine hanger versus a full barrel band does not get us out of that perverse habit a lot of lever guns have of stringing shots as they heat up. I would re arrange your last sentence so ---- "a shooter will likely be more accurate with a rifle than a carbine".   

[Abilene]

Barrel Bands themselves "might" affect barrel accuracy with heating, I don't' know (who's shooting a carbine at a long range match?).  But what I've heard of and possibly this is what Lonesome Pigeon is referring to is that the barrel and magazine can "twist" in one direction or the other if the barrel band isn't tight enough.

[greyhawk]

Barrel Bands themselves "might" affect barrel accuracy with heating, I don't' know (who's shooting a carbine at a long range match?).  But what I've heard of and possibly this is what Lonesome Pigeon is referring to is that the barrel and magazine can "twist" in one direction or the other if the barrel band isn't tight enough.

Abilene
that kinda makes sense and would be a more random effect too, leading to the "poor accuracy tag".

it dont need long range to bring this out though, rested at 100yards is enough.

I cant remember whether it was Hobie or Pettifogger (Hobie I think) had an article on accurising lever guns - worth reading if you can find it - relieving the stresses between forend, magazine tube and barrel was the message - ("Dusty Texian" on the 1876 forum knows this stuff well) 

My 76 responded positively to removal of the front hanger but there is still tension involved in the setup of the forend, dovetail, and retaining ring --this is all because some bloke told me ages ago that a cowboy gun could not shoot good enough to be competitive in a long range match.

if I can get that Uberti shooting to its barrel's potential I just might prove him wrong - might not either but we'll have some fun along the way! 

[Coffinmaker]

Hi Guys   

Leading in, I really wanted to provide some really applicable sage suggestions.  Alas, I am unable.  At a time in my Sordid past, I was known to arrive at the range with a Rifle weighing in at 35 Pounds with a barrel big enough to support buildings.  All to be able to shoot itty bitty groups.  Finally saw the light and gave that up.  I was putting more work into 20 Cases than 1000 45 Schofield.  Phooey.

What does this have to do with the Carbine Vs Rifle discussion you ask.  Absolutely nothing says I.  It is however, Sunday Morning, nothing to do, Bored, and awaiting Brunch (high point of day).  Plus I was thinking trying for "target" accuracy with either original 19th century lever rifles, or reproductions there of, to be kind of like a Bull Dog chasing it's tail.  Which is fun to watch.  Fun to try??  Not so much.

People are Hazardous to Your Health.  Avoid Them

[Cliff Fendley]

Most accurate lever pistol caliber rifle I have for long range is my Navy Arms Henry. For a few reasons I believe. One is the integral magazine and barrel making it stiff, the 24 inch barrel for a little extra velocity, and the older Uberti guns have a 1-36 twist on the 44-40 with a .427 bore and those all from my experience shoot tighter groups than the newer faster twist barrels they are doing now.

I have tried various bullets and combinations and cannot get any of my newer rifles to shoot with the old ones. I really wish Uberti wouldn't take short cuts like that with their bores. I mean when you spread it out over the cost of all the 44-40 guns they make how much would they really have to charge to have specific tooling to rifle those barrels?

[greyhawk]

Most accurate lever pistol caliber rifle I have for long range is my Navy Arms Henry. For a few reasons I believe. One is the integral magazine and barrel making it stiff, the 24 inch barrel for a little extra velocity, and the older Uberti guns have a 1-36 twist on the 44-40 with a .427 bore and those all from my experience shoot tighter groups than the newer faster twist barrels they are doing now.

I have tried various bullets and combinations and cannot get any of my newer rifles to shoot with the old ones. I really wish Uberti wouldn't take short cuts like that with their bores. I mean when you spread it out over the cost of all the 44-40 guns they make how much would they really have to charge to have specific tooling to rifle those barrels?

And I bet if they did the rifling right they would sell enough more 44/40's to cover the cost

[Cliff Fendley]

Not sure if they would sell any more or not, I doubt it would matter much. Everyone buying one is buying them anyway, it's still a superior rifle cartridge to 45 colt for black powder and not sure the fast twist matters with smokeless powder.

My testing is with black powder so that is where I've found the slower twist to work better. I've never tried shooting 44-40 smokeless any farther than 50 yards or so, just load them for my wife to shoot in CAS main match.

[LiamPullman]

I think it doesn't really matter which of those you choose. I've read an article on accurizing lever guns. The idea was that it helps relieve stress, magazine tube, and barrel. It also said something about Creedmoor. I'm pretty sure you can also find those specifications on https://ballachy.com/best-barrel-length-for-6-5-creedmoor/. As I was saying, all three guns have enough power to deteriorate anything within 200 yards. Choosing one is at your discretion, and it should depend on other factors.

[Professor Marvel]

I have to wonder , if anyone has gone to the effort of removing the barrrels bands, fore-end, and magazine completely
(rendering perfectly good lever action into a single shot) in order to test the inherent accuracy?

[Coffinmaker]

   Ho Perfesser Marvelous 

Nope.  Never heard of nor read about anyone pulling the stuff from the front end of a lever Rifle to test for inherent accuracy.

I will postalize though.  Since I once was foolish enough to dabble in "Bench Rest."  All of us Loons free floated barrels and increased the diameter to stupid proportions, to eliminate harmonics (vibration) and expansion variations, and including holding yer tongue just right.  All in the interest of shooting little itty bitty groupies.  All of that contributed to startling accuracy.  Especially holding yer tongue just right.  However we all found a 45 pound rifle some difficult to lug around.  SO:

I think (WAG Here) stripping a Lever Rifle or Carabiner down to receiver and shooting from sand baggage might show an increase in accuracy.  Measurable but basically academic.  Achieving an inch smaller groupie at 150 yards, when what you need is "Minute of Moose" is kind of . . . "Ho Humm."  Minute of Man same same as long as putting the sights on the Belt Buckle results is a center of mass hit, your gold.

Play Safe Out There - People are still Hazardous to Yer Health

PSS:  Trying to achieve Target Rifle accuracy with a Lever Rifle is Ozymoron.  No, I am NOT opinionated. 

PSSS:  I shoot Henry Rifles almost exclusively.  Since they have no "stuff" to remove from the barrel, and the barrel is heavier (stiffe) I too think they shoot more accurately from a rest.  Standing on yer hind legs not so much (sucker is Heavy).

[Tronicst1]

I'm thinking of 3 issues with lever gun accuracy;

-Barrel length
-Sight type
-Bullet load

After that, all the other stuff that comes with shooting.

I am mostly asking this question about the Winchester-Miroku 1873 .44-40 but it could apply to any lever action rifle. For target shooting at 50 - 100 yards, and maybe out to 200 yards. Is there any difference in accuracy between a Sporting Rifle, a Short rifle and a Carbine? In particular the Carbine having the barrel bands, I have heard barrel bands can mess with accuracy?

[Baltimore Ed]

I can't imagine a real difference except a longer barrel and the right powder should give you more velocity which should be more accurate at longer distance. But as close as cas targets have crept a 12 inch rifle would work fine. Here's what one might look like. I used 45 acp but c45s are the same. One on the lifter and nine in the tube. It would be a real trapper.

[David Battersby]

I have to wonder , if anyone has gone to the effort of removing the barrel bands, fore-end, and magazine completely
(rendering perfectly good lever action into a single shot) in order to test the inherent accuracy?

I did this once for a problematic Winchester 1894. Again , this rifle WAS a problem with poor accuracy and due to my stubbornness became a money pit. The carcass of this cursed beast has been stripped and utilized as an organ donor for a couple of projects.

Side note: Post 64 Winchester 94s (at least some) have magazine hangers soldered in place. A drift punch will not remove them.   

[Boone May]

I know that the barrels on the reproduction 1873 rifles (Uberti and Miroku) are lighter and more tapered than original rifles.  I understand that the old timers liked heavier barrels back in the day as they didn't flex as much.  Here is a photo to illustrate this on rifles.   That is an original 1873 24 inch octagon barrel rifle in .44 WCF.  Bottom is a Miroku 1873 with 24 inch octagon barrel rifle also in .44 WCF (.44-40 for us modern types)

I don't have an original carbine to compare with a Miroku 1873 in my collection.
One can presume that lighter barrels would "whip" or flex more.  Savvy?