Dating a Photo

[Coal Creek Griff]

(Sounds like something from a dating website  )

I recently bought a copy of The Road to Virginia City, which is the diary of James Miller, who traveled the west in the 1860s (the first entry is August 10, 1864 and the last entry is June 21, 1967).  I haven't read the book yet, but included is the attached photo.  I scanned the full photo with the caption, but due to the limitations of the website, I had to reduce the already somewhat reduced quality.  I've included a couple of details showing the people in the photo.  As you can see, the caption says that this is from about 1866, but my first thought that this must be later than that based on the guns and holsters.  I'm far from being an expert, but many true experts check in here.  What are your thoughts? 

Note that this is just a topic for idle discussion--there's no real importance in coming up with a solid answer; I just find it interesting.

Griff

[DJ]

I would think more likely the 1870s or possibly early 80s. 

The gun with the gent on the left suggests a large-frame, square butt Merwin Hulbert (ca. 1876 or later) or possibly a Smith & Wesson Number 3 (2nd Russian, 3rd Russian, or New Model ca. 1873 or later).  The pixilation makes it hard to tell, but that's the impression it gives me.

I cannot make out enough of the gun on the other guy to even guess, and not being a holster historian, although it strikes me as post-Civil War, I really don't have a clue.

Good luck on your quest!

--DJ

[Coffinmaker]

Personally, I always preferred to date Real Live Girls, as opposed to Photo's.  Just me.

Stay Safe Out There

[Coal Creek Griff]

I knew that we could count on Coffinmaker to offer his wisdom and sage advice. 

I appreciate your observations, DJ.  My copy of the book was printed in the 1960s and used halftone (I had to look that up) to reproduce the photos, so if you try to zoom in, you just see bigger dots.  That's unfortunate.

I think that I may be seeing cartridge loops on the belt of the fellow on the right...

Griff

[dusty texian]

Good topic .  No expert , my guess is early 1890S  Just something about the fellow on the right and the saddles tells me so . ,,DT

[LongWalker]

if the caption is correct, somewhere between 1864 and 11/8/1889, when MT became a state.   One problem with the pic is that it is credited elsewhere as being of JPKM and a friend in/near Deadwood. 

Some biographical info might help.  From what little I've pulled together, JPKM left NY and went to Salt Lake City in 1864.  In 1865 he went north to Montana Territory.  He returned east in 1867 (wound up spending a year in Europe), then went back to Helena.  He later moved to the Black Hills and was in business there.  He contracted tuberculosis, and died in Santa Barbara CA in 1891, at age 46.  At least at first while in UT and MT, he used the name J. Sidney Osbourne. 

Confusingly, there is actually another James Knox Polk Miller from Alabama who is roughly the same age.  No relation that I saw.

Ballpark guess, it should be possible to get it down to the year.  If the photo were better, it might be worth doing that just for details in attire and equipage.  But that might take another 10-20 hours of work spread over a year or two. . . .   

[Tascosa Joe]

Bannock, MT is the site of Montana's first Masonic lodge.  Bannock is now a ghost town.  The saddle Miller's horse might be a Sam Stagg rigged saddle which would date a little earlier. 1880 or so.  The cantles on the saddles are pretty high for 1867.

[Major 2]

Anybody else notice the resemblance of the guy on the right to Buster Keaton ?

[DJ]

I was thinking a young Lee Van Cleef.

[Coal Creek Griff]

Anybody else notice the resemblance of the guy on the right to Buster Keaton ?

I ABSOLUTELY thought that!  I almost mentioned it in my original post, but I wasn't sure that anyone else would know what I was talking about. I should have never doubted.

Griff

[Coal Creek Griff]

if the caption is correct, somewhere between 1864 and 11/8/1889, when MT became a state.   One problem with the pic is that it is credited elsewhere as being of JPKM and a friend in/near Deadwood. 

Some biographical info might help.  From what little I've pulled together, JPKM left NY and went to Salt Lake City in 1864.  In 1865 he went north to Montana Territory.  He returned east in 1867 (wound up spending a year in Europe), then went back to Helena.  He later moved to the Black Hills and was in business there.  He contracted tuberculosis, and died in Santa Barbara CA in 1891, at age 46.  At least at first while in UT and MT, he used the name J. Sidney Osbourne. 

Confusingly, there is actually another James Knox Polk Miller from Alabama who is roughly the same age.  No relation that I saw.

Ballpark guess, it should be possible to get it down to the year.  If the photo were better, it might be worth doing that just for details in attire and equipage.  But that might take another 10-20 hours of work spread over a year or two. . . .

This is interesting. Where did you do your research? Is that all available in the internet?  (Since tone of voice does not come through well over the internet, I want to make clear that I am not questioning what you wrote, just curious where you found this information.)

Thanks.

Griff

[LongWalker]

I had some casual notes on JKPM from research for a another project (including notes on his alias, and the occasional confusion about his initials (James Knox Polk Miller--I've seen him mentioned as "James K. P. Miller" and "James P. K. Miller"--and I mixed them up too).  I checked several bibliographies and indexes of books I already had out for other projects.  I poked around some on some genealogy websites to make sure I had the correct dates, and had separated out the Alabaman of the same name.  I'd noticed the photograph recently in a couple of works while doing some reading on the Black Hills 1860-1910. 

My guesstimate on tracing the pic to the year is based on several points.  I don't recall the books I saw the photo in, but I have a list of what I read and could go back and check.  Hopefully the photographer could be identified, leading to info on where it was shot, or when.  Once the locale is identified, there are a couple of approaches to breaking out the year (and possibly the actual site of the photo--always fun when you can do that).  And if a decent scan of the original or negative could be found, a lot more detail could be pulled out!

I think it would also be worthwhile to check the newspaper files for Salt Lake City, Virginia City, Bannack, Deadwood, Lead, and maybe Belle Fourche.  Probably worth contacting several local historical societies requesting info as well.  From there it becomes a matter of following up leads until curiosity is satisfied. 

[Coal Creek Griff]

Excellent. Thanks!

Griff

[LongWalker]

You're welcome.  It is a lot like skiptracing/doing background checks, but with different tools.  Then and now, the questions are similar.  I've got a feeling that if someone wanted to go to the effort to get answers, it would make a great article--maybe even a book. 

[DeaconKC]

Just an observation about Millers and Alabama. The Millers were quite connected with the Tittle family from Alabama [Tittles are my forebears] and some were a very rough bunch, riding with Guerillas eventually bootleggers, smugglers and rumrunners through Prohibition. Many HAD to leave the state to avoid "necktie parties" and headed to Missouri and points farther West.