Mimimum Velocity Limit

[Major Matt Lewis]

I tend to agree with Arcey in his last statement.  The way to get a true read on things is to pull somebody of the loading table. 

George,

No, life is not fair, but isn't the whole point of the Short Stroke ban and the consideration of a minimum powder requirement an attempt by NCOWS to make NCOWS more just?  If NCOWS is to be just, than all should be chronographed before the main match.  That will allow folks to correct any inconsistancies that they may have. 

[Ornery Orr]

Collect entry fees, give everybody a match DQ, then the host club supplies the beer and everybody sits around the fire, gets drunk and talks about how good they would have shot!

[Quick Fire]

Major Matt, actually autheticity is the reason for the ban on short stroke kits.

[Dr. Bob]

Quick Fire,

You got it right pard!!!

OO,

I'm with you if it is good beer. 

[Lone Gunman]

Collect entry fees, give everybody a match DQ, then the host club supplies the beer and everybody sits around the fire, gets drunk and talks about how good they would have shot!

Let me work on your guns & we can do that at every shoot     

[Cuts Crooked]

"just" and "fair" can be two different things.

"So there I was, driving down interstate 80, along with a whole bunch of people who had chosen to drive that stretch of road that day, and I'm thinkin' traffic is a little slow. So I slide over into the passing lane and kick it up to 95! Things are cool, I'm making good time gettin over to Newbrasky and no one is being bothered by it! Heck I wasn't weaving' in & out of traffic or nuthin, ya know, not driving crazy, jist a lil faster than most. When all of a sudden I see these danged blue & red lights flashing in the rear view!!! DANG! State trooper nailed me fer speedin! Well I wuzn't the onliest one speedin out there that day, Yer Honor. So I don' think I deserved ta get nailed! That doggon trooper shoulda been radaring every single vehicle on that highway and give a ticket ta everyone that wuz speedin! Otherwise it AIN'T FAIR!!!!!

Hizzhonor replies, "Young man, you were speeding! And you can't deny it! You got caught! Yes there were probably others out there speeding, but YOU got caught! The law says you cannot drive that fast on our interstates. It does not, however, say that the Trooper is required to catch every single person who makes the descision that you did, to drive too fast. To attempt to do so would be an impossible burden on our system. So we just have to do the best we can. When you got caught and were setting there alongside the highway you became an example to other drivers of what MIGHT happen to them if they choose to ignore the speed laws, and thereby had an influence on how they chose to drive. And I will add that you KNEW that getting caught was a possibilty right up front! So "fair" doesn't enter into it! Be that as it may, if I dismiss the charges because you don't think it's "fair" then it would set another example...one that would fill this court with people claiming, 'it ain't fair'! And we would be circumvernting the rule of law in order to make you feel like you were treated "fair". I find you guilty and sentence you to pay the maximum fine allowed by law! That may not be fair, but it IS just!" Baliff! Next case.........."

[Major Matt Lewis]

John,

I agree with the spirit of what is being asked to be done.  I really do.  I just don't like the idea of singling out people.  Doing minimum velocity for safety is fine with all, but enforcement must be equal.  Don't we want to be sure that EVERYBODY is safe? 

I figure if you catch it before hand, than it's not an issue because that person has time to run to the gun store to buy ammo if the test is done on side match day.  I figure that will be a lot better than doing it in a match and then sending someone home...

I realize I am in the minority at least on this board, but Match Directors and the NCOWS Congress should not forget that the shooters who attend their events are customers.  There is a way to enforce a minimum velocity without alienating your customer base.  Note that I did not say that NCOWS should not do this, just be smart in the way they do it.

I also want to point out, two things.  

1. This is an awful lot of fuss over a relatively small amount of shooters.  I have only seen one at an NCOWS match that would have warrented testing.    
2. I hope that this does not turn into something like the short stroke, where there is room for selective enforcement.  Either everybody should be subject to it or nobody.  The same with the Short Stroke and all rules, unless they are catagory specific

[Frog69]

IM taking just a part out of an other post that I have done and slid it over here to make a point about NCOWS as fallow....
The charter of NCOWS started with the Very specific but, broad idea as shown in our By laws and Articles of Incorporation
PREAMBLE By Laws
Resolved, that the National Congress of Old West Shootists is a not-for-profit living history and shooting organization formed of individuals and affiliated member units to promote interest in the period of American History known as the "Old West," specifically the period from 1865 to 1899.
National Congress of Old West Shootists
Articles of Incorporation
Section 4.02. The purposes for which this corporation is formed are purely social and recreational to benefit the general welfare of its members and the general public, and not for financial gain,There are a few glaring points that do jump out at me, maybe not so obvious to others but, still there.
Note The By laws state "not-for-profit living history and shooting organization " It does not say "not-for-profit living history shooting organization " That Addition of the word AND could easily and legally be argued that the founders intended for these two items to be separate and maybe that's not a bad idea.
Note the Articles of Incorporation state "The purposes for which this corporation is formed are purely social and recreational to benefit the general welfare of its members and the general public" This does not include the words: sport, competition, scoring, fairness,
Exclusive shooting or exclusive history. This could be argued that the founders had the intent for this organization to be just for the fun of doing something with like individuals and noncompetitive
As always safety is first and setting things up at a range safely is a #1 duty to all posies but, it sure would be nice to put the fun as a goal to be strive for at every match.
Just some thoughts For a great club ... the one the only NCOWS

[Cuts Crooked]

John,

I agree with the spirit of what is being asked to be done.  I really do.  I just don't like the idea of singling out people.  Doing minimum velocity for safety is fine with all, but enforcement must be equal.  Don't we want to be sure that EVERYBODY is safe? 

I figure if you catch it before hand, than it's not an issue because that person has time to run to the gun store to buy ammo if the test is done on side match day.  I figure that will be a lot better than doing it in a match and then sending someone home...

I realize I am in the minority at least on this board, but Match Directors and the NCOWS Congress should not forget that the shooters who attend their events are customers.  There is a way to enforce a minimum velocity without alienating your customer base.  Note that I did not say that NCOWS should not do this, just be smart in the way they do it.

I also want to point out, two things.  

1. This is an awful lot of fuss over a relatively small amount of shooters.  I have only seen one at an NCOWS match that would have warrented testing.    
2. I hope that this does not turn into something like the short stroke, where there is room for selective enforcement.  Either everybody should be subject to it or nobody.  The same with the Short Stroke and all rules, unless they are catagory specific

<sigh>

And there in lay my points. I would LOVE it if people didn't have to be singled out! But in the real world we have to do it all the time. Don't we? And as NCOWS expands it brings in more & more attitudes and beliefs from that world. And just like in the example above, breaking the rules does occure, and sometimes multiple people do it. So we enforce them as best we can. <another sigh> Whether or not the minimum velocity suggestion is related to safety, or a desire to maintain relalistic & historically accurate loads, the biggest arguments brought out to fight the idea is that it would take too long and be too expensive to test everyones ammo...along with the "cache of test ammo" scenerio.

Interestingly enough, you mention only having seen the phenomenom of extra light loads once. This kind of makes my point too! In that instance, if a rule were in place at the time, that shooter could be approched at the loading table and asked to provide one of his shells for testing...minimum fuss and minimum time taken away from the game. Again, I would have no problem with being so asked ....and I would rather not shoot with a fellow who pitched a fit about it anyway.

Finally, whether this is a living history AND shooting organization, or whether we want to separate these two aspects of NCOWS (which I'm not sure is a good idea), the shooting part is a game/competition and as such there are rules to govern how the competition is conducted, both for safety and for maintaining some type of fairness within the competition. Here we are considering a possible rule.....BUT THE WILLINGNESSS TO ENFORCE IS PARAMOUNT if it is to be workable Otherwise it is all a pointless farce.

[Lars]

.....BUT THE WILLINGNESSS TO ENFORCE IS PARAMOUNT if it is to be workable.  Otherwise it is all a pointless farce.

There is the essence. NCOWS folks posting here seem heavily of the opinion that one is to police themselves. Nice if that actually happens. What about those that don't? Especially with a rule that concerns something not readily discerened by casual inspection with any accuracy, things like actual muzzle velocities, actual angles of lever strokes, etc. Rules with no intent and mechanism for enforcement simply invite derision.

A previous post by Cuts gets quite to the point re "fair" versus "just". Rules without effective means of inforcement are neither.

Lars

[Major Matt Lewis]

Cuts,

You could do everybody seemlessly and efficiently with the Chrono.  Just have the shooter pass the chrono test before they pick up their shooters packet.  Also consider something.  The biggest shoot in NCOWS has 150 shooters attend, I believe.  Being swamped with numbers is a good problem to have.  But it is a problem the most of NCOWS does not have yet.  I believe most clubs will eventually have problems, because NCOWS is a good group, but not now.  Especially if someone is chronographed before they are allowed to pick up the packet. 

[Frog69]

i agree lets let this one go to the glue factory

[Lone Gunman]

We've sent many issues to the glue factory....

...and they've always just stuck around 

[Ornery Orr]

We've sent many issues to the glue factory....

...and they've always just stuck around 

Speaking of short strokes!  Just kidding!   I'm afraid to shoot in the same posse as Lone Gunman.  That gun breakin' bad juju might rub off on me.  Starting my 4th year of CAS, I've seen a few firearm mishaps (trouble with functioning) and George has had the most!  But you can't rattle him! No sir! He just keeps on going and going and going.  Kind of like the Energizer bunny (he has his own action figure also!). 

[Lars]

Let me be the first to express my admiration for George's elegant explanation for why dead horses seeem to always be with us.

Lars

[Dakota Widowmaker]

seriously, I am not trying to continue any beatings of expired equine, but, what are "recommended" min/max velocities?

I always "assumed" that you should keep the bullet going faster than 700fps but under 1000fps. Regardless of caliber.

Now, a 31pocket pistol is only going to do about 600fps with BP. So, the "suggestion" is really for cartridges.

Sound "reasonable"?

[Dr. Bob]

Ensign John,

It is quite unseemly for an Officer, even a very junior one to be seen doing manual labor!   

I hope what you really meant to say was that you were supervising other ranks doing the actual digging!

Capt. Dr. Bob
US Topographical Engineer

[Lars]

I think that the presistance of dead horses can be traced to improper burial. In other words, as Lone Gunman indicates, because they were taken to glue factory instead. It behoves the officers in charge, or whoever is, to do this  burial properly. Even if the officers have to do it themselves. Maybe burial with honors of those long suffering horses would do the trick. They do deserve some reward for all their suffering.

Lars