Uberti 1876 in 45-60 ejector issue or brass ???

waterwolf · December 01, 2020, 12:44:58 AM

Hello everyone,
New guy here. Just tried reloading the 45-60 with Jamison brass headstamped 45-60. I went to test fire a few rounds and it was very hard to close the action. I know this is bad from reading other posts now. I won't continue that. But moving on it appears the rims are the correct thickness watching the bolt close once the extractor is over the rim. But it is a #@!#&* to close the action completly until the extractor gets over the brass rim. I measured the Jamison brass rim diameter and it is .613, I them meausred my 45-70 brass it it measures .602. Is my Jamison brass rim to large of a diameter and causing my extractor problems. I believe the question kind of answers itself, but what should the rim diameter be? Am I barking up the wrong tree or am I on the right track. Any help or direction would be appreciated. Maybe ejector tunning? Oh by the way the ejector is leaving quite a mark on the brass rim, the brass ain't happy.

Thanks all,

New guy in MN

waterwolf · December 01, 2020, 12:55:34 AM

Another observation, it looks like the Jamison brass is a two piece design or the shell was turned down just above the rim a bit pretty weird. Just above the rim there is a recessed shoulder before the main body of the shell extends. I can feel it with a finger nail pretty easy.

recess diameter just off the rim .497
main body just off the rim .501

Thanks

The new guy from MN

King Medallion · December 01, 2020, 08:55:46 AM

Was the 45/60 brass resized before loading? Have you tried cutting down a 45/70 brass to try? Maybe you bullet isn't seated far enough into the brass? Is there lead buildup in the chamber throat? Just a few idea's to look for. Pic's might help.

waterwolf · December 01, 2020, 09:15:22 AM

Here are couple of pics of the spent brass. I'm going to cut down one of those 45-70 smaller rim brass and see how it feeds.

doketx · December 01, 2020, 10:36:47 AM

Hi!
I cut down 45-70 cases to fit my 45-60 Uberti and have to thin the rim to about .462 as well as trim the case length. A too thick rim will result in your having trouble closing the bolt. Maybe that's the trouble. Hope this helps.

Dave

Slamfire · December 01, 2020, 11:12:59 AM

Check your head space ,, looks to tight.

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

waterwolf · December 01, 2020, 11:42:20 AM

It seems like the extractor is having problems getting over the rim possibly because of the diameter. Does anyone have a measurement of what the rim diameter should be? Or are each gun different slightly? Trial and error?

my 45-70 rim thickness is.063 and OD of the rim is .601
my 45-60 rim thickness is.053-.055 and OD of the rim is .612-.0613

waterwolf · December 01, 2020, 12:41:34 PM

I reduced the rim diameter to .600 and now bolt closes well with a sharp but not agressive cycling. If I try to ease the shell in slowly and quietly (think deer in front of you and rifle not chambered) still hangs up sometimes. Ejects smoothly and leaves much less of a extractor mark on the rim, but still noticeable.

Running 34 gr of 2015 and lyman 300gr. 457191 bullets. OAL 2.25 which seats the bullets a bit past the upper lub groove.

greyhawk · December 01, 2020, 08:03:04 PM

Quote from: waterwolf on December 01, 2020, 12:41:34 PM
I reduced the rim diameter to .600 and now bolt closes well with a sharp but not agressive cycling. If I try to ease the shell in slowly and quietly (think deer in front of you and rifle not chambered) still hangs up sometimes. Ejects smoothly and leaves much less of a extractor mark on the rim, but still noticeable.

Running 34 gr of 2015 and lyman 300gr. 457191 bullets. OAL 2.25 which seats the bullets a bit past the upper lub groove.

Also check that the extractor is not frozen in its slot in the bolt - my Uberti I can move the extractor tip a little with the end of my finger - see it move a little in the slot.

waterwolf · December 06, 2020, 09:13:36 AM

Yup, verified extractor was moving and oiled. Seems to all circle back to rim diameter of the shell. I'm sure more to come with this new firearm and reloading it.

Slamfire · December 06, 2020, 02:19:16 PM

Wait ! look at the rim of the case ... the deep imprint is on the " bolt " side ( the way I see it ), check to see if the back edge,, of the extractor is flush with the " face " of the bolt, the imprint is on the back side of the rim , ( I could be " wrong ", just something to look at. That is why I said to tight a head space.

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

Sloan Dodgy · December 08, 2020, 01:11:53 AM

I have noticed a couple of things about .40-60 WCF and .45-60 brass and fit in '76s old and new. Original ammo had larger diameter and less-thick rims than .45-70 Government. The Jamison brass for '76s that was made a few years ago (and no longer available, sigh) was made to the same rim dimensions as original ammo. The Chaparral '76 replica in .40-60 WCF that I had several years ago was set up to that same spec - it loved the Jamison brass but would not chamber brass made from modern .45-70 Gov't without far too much force on the lever because the rims were too thick. And yes, I did check all other aspects of formed .45-70 brass and there was no question that it was specifically the rim thickness that was causing the problem.

Just recently I managed to find a nice new Cimarron-Uberti '76 replica in .45-60. It has just the opposite problem with brass type. It won't easily chamber the wide-rimmed Jamison brass because it is too large in diameter fit the bolt face well - the little 'tab' projecting from the lower part of the bolt opposite the extractor will actually dig into the rim if I try to force it closed and I'm sure it would break the tab pretty quickly if forced very often. On the other hand, it feeds and closes nicely on cases formed from .45-70 Gov't.

It seems to me that the two replica manufacturers used different philosophies as regards cartridge fit. The Chaparral came out long before Jamison started making 'original' spec cases, but was nevertheless set up to match the original ammo. When Uberti started making these (and I do prefer the Uberti made rifles) they evidently decided to be practical and set them up to use currently available components; in other words, Uberti expected us to form our cartridges from .45-70 Gov't brass.

Why in the world Winchester decided to make the original rim dimensions not quite the same as the .45-70 is a mystery to me. The .45-60 came out in 1879 and the .40-60 WCF not until 1884, so the government .45-70 had been around long enough to set a standard. Who knows?

Black River Smith · December 08, 2020, 11:06:41 AM

Sloan Dodgy,

Thank you for that info. I have believed exactly what you have described but never had a Uberti in my hands to prove it.

My Chaparral bolt does measure the Original Winchester case rim diameter of 0.629. But everyone with Uberti's always stated that a thinned standard 45/70 worked and ejected like any other toggle link rifle. Whereas a thinned standard 45/70 rim diameter of 0.602 just does 'not' hold and eject 'normally' from a Chaparral rifle.

I believe and agree with you that Uberti built their bolts to use 'standard 45/70 diameter' modified brass. But they never advertised that fact. Thanks for confirming this by having one of each.

I may have to get a few piece of Jamison brass, Now, and try them in my Chaparral 45/60. Just so expensive. $2 a piece.

greyhawk · December 25, 2020, 06:28:37 AM

Quote from: Slamfire on December 06, 2020, 02:19:16 PM
Wait ! look at the rim of the case ... the deep imprint is on the " bolt " side ( the way I see it ), check to see if the back edge,, of the extractor is flush with the " face " of the bolt, the imprint is on the back side of the rim , ( I could be " wrong ", just something to look at. That is why I said to tight a head space.

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

The position of that mark is typical of
1) extractor frozen in the bolt
2) the recess in the barrel face not cut deep enough or the correct shape to let the extractor ride over the case rim
The first has been checked - need to check number two - then proceed to other ideas

Slamfire · December 25, 2020, 02:20:32 PM

DITTO , to Sloan Dodgy. When I first got my Chaparral ( 40-60 ) the JB , left to much head space where as the 45-70 gov. fixed the problem , that's what I use now , and set my 45-60 Chaparral ( new to me ) up for 45-70's .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

KenH · December 27, 2020, 04:05:31 PM

Reading this post has confirmed what I've found with my "project" rifle. Thank ya'll for the info. I have an original 40-60 cal 1876 manuf'd in 1883, but I have fitted an Uberti bolt to the rifle. I ordered a box of Jamison 40-60 brass, and now I've tried to chamber a dummy round of Jamison brass it just doesn't wish to chamber because the ejector doesn't slip over the rim. If I push down on bolt so to "lift" the extractor a tad it slides on in. Measuring the Jamison brass it has a .056" thickness and a . 616" diameter rim. Checking a Star 45-70 brass the rim is .064" thick and .602" diameter. By thinning the rim to .055" the Star 45-70 brass chambers nicely. I turned the Jamison brass to .600" diameter and it works ok now.

Ken H>