1876 Winchester Project Rifle

[KenH]

Lil'Gun is used by some of the 300 Blackout folks.  That's why I happened to have some on hand, from loading 300BO ammo.  I guess it could be called a "Magnum Pistol Powder".  The burn rate for Lil'Gun (62) is right there around H110 (63), IMR4227 (65) or even SR4759 (67) powders. 

I used QuickLoad program to work up most loading data.  I'll double check with several of the loading manuals I've got to make sure I've not got something way out of line.  I was looking for a load to give something in the 1400 to 1500 fps range, but with low pressure curve and still provide most of the powder burnt.  If I'm loading a load for hunting or long range shooting then I'll load  more toward the max allowed for the rifle I'm shooting. 

I don't like TrailBoss powders - while it's a bulky powder for better case fill it's a really fast powder with a burn rate of 19, between Bullseye (13) and Unique (31).  All those powders are fast giving a high peak pressure for the amount of bullet velocity.

Yea, I know, sometimes I get pretty wordy when asked a simple question.  I've been told I'm a person if you ask "What time is it", you'll have to listen to a history of time and watchmaking before you finally get the time {g}

[dusty texian]

Reading your load results looks like your load is in the Velocity range for the 40-60 wcf . How did the cases look after firing  ? Hope you get to test for accuracy and report back . The 40-60 wcf is a really fun cartridge to shoot . Hope to get out and shoot mine a bit soon . ,,,DT

[KenH]

Since they moved city limits to my property line I've only got a max of 30 yds or so for shooting, so it's hard to get real accuracy results.  AND I've got to get a shooting bench setup - off hand my wobble is too much, especially when trying to get low enough to shoot thru the chrono.

Here's a couple of brass.  You can see there are no signs of pressure at all, primers fully rounded.  Calculated pressure is around 12K psi so the brass is sealing not showing any smoke blowby.  Since they is smokeless there wouldn't be the amount of blowby as would be seen with black powder.   How much cleaning is required for a barrel after firing a few rounds of black powder, if followed up with a couple rounds of smokeless?

[dusty texian]

From what I can see they look A OK !  Not sure have never tried smokeless loads after shooting Bp. without cleaning the Bp. foul first . Can say the Bp. foul is a lot easier to clean than most would believe . The 40-60 fouls out faster than my other 76 cartridges at least in my rifles and loads . I have the idea of trying a few Duplex Loads in my 40-60 and see if that works as good in my 40-60 as it is reported to do for others . ,,,,DT

[KenH]

I have read about duplex black powder loads but never had much interest in them.  I've shot a bit of BP in muzzleloaders, and a BP in Rolling Block rifles, 45-70, 50-70, and a few in an old .43 Spanish Reformado.   I've never used BP in my Sharps, nor the Trapdoor.  Just a bit more hassle to clean than a Rolling Block where I can open the barrel up from end to end.

It does look like a couple rounds of smokeless after shooting BP would clean any BP residual from barrel.  My method of clean BP has always been soapy water and a brush.  Muzzle loaders I'd get in shower and go to work with a brush and hot soapy water.

[dusty texian]

If the powder supplies ever catch up and LilGun is on the shelf again I'll get some and give it a try . I have used and still do  IMR 3031 with good accuracy and no pressure problems that I could see at all . Of course I was not trying for top speed just a 210 cast bullet in the 1400 fps. range  . Have shot a couple wild hogs with that load and can say they cant stand the strain .  Lol ,,,DT

[KenH]

DT, do you remember how many grains of 3031 you were using with a 210 bullet for the 1400 fps range?

[dusty texian]

 If I remember right  I started at 28 Gr. and went up 1 Gr. at a time to 30 Gr. of IMR 3031 , accuracy was good a few kernels could be seen in the barrel but besides that it was a good load . I tried  9.5 Gr. Unique and same bullet  accuracy was not as good as the 3031 , but could have been me never tried it again . ,,,DT

[KenH]

Thanks for the response - Yep, 30 grains of 3031 is what I loaded with 3031 and bullet seated to 2.15" OAL it wa with a good low pressure round, around 10K psi calculated.  Like you I'd have a few grains of unburnt powder in action, seems it was calculated to be only 60% of powder burnt.  I did fire one round at 35 grains of 3031 and it sure did seem heavier.  Still not a "wild" load at 1650 to 1700 fps chrono'd range with no sign of over pressure (flatten primer, etc).  No powder grains left in action with this load {g}.

20 grains of Lil'Gun is a decent stout load around 1700 fps, but still only 15K psi range.

I did load up a couple rounds of Unique with <10 grains but think I like something in the burn rate range of Lil'Gun powder better.  I think I would use a filler with Lil'Gun.  I was getting 100 fps spread on the 18.3 grain chrono, but a couple of rounds I tilted barrel up, then down to shooting position and got only 20 fps spread.  I'm loading some 16.0 loads today (once I get away from computer:) using filler.

Later

[greyhawk]

From what I can see they look A OK !  Not sure have never tried smokeless loads after shooting Bp. without cleaning the Bp. foul first . Can say the Bp. foul is a lot easier to clean than most would believe . The 40-60 fouls out faster than my other 76 cartridges at least in my rifles and loads . I have the idea of trying a few Duplex Loads in my 40-60 and see if that works as good in my 40-60 as it is reported to do for others . ,,,,DT

Dusty
I run a duplex load in my repro 1886 (45/70) 6 grains 4227 under 64 grains of FFFg - HDPE wad + 335 grain Boolit - that gets 1520'ish FPS
Definitely shoots a lot cleaner - could proly cut the smokeless down a bit - 4 grains maybe?
I reckon in these size cases gain about 100fps over a straight black load but I have not set down to test that properly.
Have not and will not run duplex or smokeless in my 45/75. no big deal just not gonna happen -   

In Kens case ---I would not trust a smokeless load after black or a duplex load to clean things well enough to put a gun away not cleaned  - that might work - but not gonna test the theory - I dont see cleaning as a chore anyway - specially not these big lever guns and double specially if it was one I built like Ken is doing .

[KenH]

greyhawk: Thanks for the input on duplex loads.  If I may ask without causing offense, why do you run duplex in your 45-70, but would not even consider running duplex or smokeless in the 45-75?  Is it because the 45-70 is a modern reproduction and perhaps the 45-75 is an original and you're concerned about the strength of the old rifle?

I normal use smokeless in my old original rifles in order to keep the chamber pressure down to protect those old guns.  It seems smokeless allows reduced loads better than BP, and my old shoulders can't handle the recoil like they did years ago. 

I've never tried a duplex load, just read about them, but never really saw the need unless a person running max loads and looking to get a tad more fps from a full black powder load.

Thank ya'll for comments and sharing knowledge and experience.

[dusty texian]

I'll be interested in Greyhawk answers about the 45-75  and no duplex load my guess is he has a load worked up and it is not needed .  The 40-60 wcf in my longer barrel guns foul hard pretty fast . I think its the powder to bore ratio and magnified by a longer barrel . In my 22" 40-60 I have no problems , can shoot it for many shots with hardly any loss of accuracy . And in the 22" barrel gun I use the same bullet / lube / powder . With the Swiss Bp. in the longer barrel 40 -60 fouling is not as bad but still accuracy goes away after a few shots . I am not wanting to Hot Rod the old rifles , just like shooting Bp. in them and think I'll try just a small amount of smokeless over the primer to try and achieve a clean burn . I have no IMR 4227 powder and not likely to find any soon . I have read IMR 3031 can be used as a Duplex primer powder . I have plenty of it . What do Y'all think about using the IMR 3031 ?

[KenH]

DT, Please understand I have NO experience with duplex loads.  The only knowledge I have is from reading and it seems a faster powder in the H110 (63) to 4759 (67) burn rate is used.  3031 (79) is a good bit slower so I'm not sure how well it would work.  Those burn rates are from a chart I've got, but the burn rate numbers seem to vary from place to place, depending on who comes up with them I guess.

Here's a decent thread with some knowledgeable folks about duplex loads:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?137201-Black-powder-duplex-loads

Greyhawk, does the info above agree with your experience?

[dusty texian]

I understood that KenH  , was thinking one of the other members may have some input . Thanks for the link you posted . Did you get to try the LilGun with filler yet ? ,,,DT

[KenH]

I've not yet shot them thru a chrono yet - I've got 10 rounds or so loaded up at 16 grains of Lil'Gun with 2 grains of polyester filler (out of stuffed animal) to make the 208 grain bullet a total of 210 grain.  2 grains isn't really enough to make any real difference. 

I'll try to fire 3 rounds thru the chrono today just to check velocity and ES.

[Trailrider]

I wonder how H4895 or IMR4895 would work? Also ReloadeR7 might be interesting to try.  Or even IMR4198, with or without the TP filler. I've used 27 gr 4198 with the TP in .40-65 WCF with a 250 gr. cast bullet. But don't know how is would compare with .40-60.
Stay well, Pards!

[hpbear101]

I tried IMR 4895 in the 50-95, it shot o.k. but quite a bit of unburnt powder. I am now shooting mostly RL7 for smokeless loads, RL7 seems to burn much better.

Tom

[KenH]

I Shot 3 rounds into the ground and got 1410, 1450, 1426 fps in that order.  This is with a Lee 410-210-SWC mold that drops bullets at 408, add 2 grains of polyester fiber filler to hold powder in place.  16 grains of Lil'Gun, 22" barrel, and 2.20" OAL.  I didn't weight each power drop, just dropped from a small size of a Harrell's Precision powder measure.

4895 powder would be pretty slow unless you wish to shoot 100% case fill and still it only has 60% to 70% power burnt depending on barrel length and caliber. 

I tend to like small flake or spherical ball powders because they drop so much easier (accurate) from power measures than does a large rod grain powder like 4895, or even 3031 can sometimes shear a grain of power.

[greyhawk]

greyhawk: Thanks for the input on duplex loads.  If I may ask without causing offense, why do you run duplex in your 45-70, but would not even consider running duplex or smokeless in the 45-75?  Is it because the 45-70 is a modern reproduction and perhaps the 45-75 is an original and you're concerned about the strength of the old rifle?

Ken - when I got the Uberti 76 I intended to figure out a smokeless load - even cut 100 cases to the correct length for the crimp groove on the LEE 340 grain mold I had bought for the purpose - plans changed as time went by (I always tell people its imperative to have a plan so you can change it as you go along!) about the same time as the 76 came I started making my own powder - we dont talk about that here but it went way better than I had hoped - shoots pretty clean - good velocity - consistent - anyways the Uberti has a Pedersoli barrel and they apparently hand lap these in the factory - it is like mirror smooth shiny - helps with fouling and cleaning - I went ahead and developed loads for the 76 that had me completely satisfied and I could shoot 20 - 25 with just a bit of a blow down the barrel every few shots - so long as I took time and didnt get it too hot - very happy camper with that gun and saw no reason at all to change anything - have touched 1500FPS a few times over the chrony with a 335 grain boolit and ES in the single digit range (just) Good enough I reckon!!! So my no smokeless mantra is mostly - cant see the point - the gun is new - I am sure it would take a bit more.

So then I bought a Chiappa 1886 - had brass and dies molds etc and been loading for a repro sharps for ages - The Chiappa had some issues - I got it second hand - had fired six rounds - would not feed a round from the magazine at all and I seriously considered taking it back for a refund - I made ten blackpowder loads for it - mounted a decent tang sight and put it over the bench (single loaded from the top) WOW - nice shooter - a keeper for sure - so I took the challenge and got it working nice - tried the duplex load in it for fun and a bit more ooompf - yeah the action is plenty strong to do anything - the barrel on this rifle is not quite as well finished as the Uberti and I am a bit more inclined to rip shots off with it - the same boolit gets me about 1530FPS - plenty enough for me. I suppose laziness and the cost of powder will keep me on this track - a case of aint broke dont fix it. I probably take the opposite view to you on the pressure side  I feel quite content loading any blackpowder firearm with blackpowder but seen blokes get into plenty trouble experimenting with smokeless. (wrong burn rates, double charges of fast powder, unburnt grains gunking the works up, boolits disappearing into the case from poor crimping, wadding in the case to make half charges work properly)
     
I normal use smokeless in my old original rifles in order to keep the chamber pressure down to protect those old guns.  It seems smokeless allows reduced loads better than BP, and my old shoulders can't handle the recoil like they did years ago. 

I've never tried a duplex load, just read about them, but never really saw the need unless a person running max loads and looking to get a tad more fps from a full black powder load.

Thank ya'll for comments and sharing knowledge and experience.

[greyhawk]

I'll be interested in Greyhawk answers about the 45-75  and no duplex load my guess is he has a load worked up and it is not needed .  The 40-60 wcf in my longer barrel guns foul hard pretty fast . I think its the powder to bore ratio and magnified by a longer barrel . In my 22" 40-60 I have no problems , can shoot it for many shots with hardly any loss of accuracy . And in the 22" barrel gun I use the same bullet / lube / powder . With the Swiss Bp. in the longer barrel 40 -60 fouling is not as bad but still accuracy goes away after a few shots . I am not wanting to Hot Rod the old rifles , just like shooting Bp. in them and think I'll try just a small amount of smokeless over the primer to try and achieve a clean burn . I have no IMR 4227 powder and not likely to find any soon . I have read IMR 3031 can be used as a Duplex primer powder . I have plenty of it . What do Y'all think about using the IMR 3031 ?

Got it in one !!! good load - no need to change -----I tend to shoot the 76 slow and easy, blow tube (or down the spout if I am out and about) about every three or five shots. 

I did use sr 4759 (that the right tag?? - the bulky stuff with holes up the middle of it) for duplex when I was shooting dirty chinese powder - liked the 4227 better - I dont have 3031 - if burn rates are similar should be ok .
I got ridiculously low ES over the chrony with that 45/70 load  (6FPS for ten shots from memory)

Adding a bit here
SR4759 to 3031 would be the range of burn I would choose ---- I would lean to the slower end rather than faster - no way no how would I try stuff like red dot or bullseye and also the Winchester ball powders (maybe) could be problematic.