777 whats yer `pinion on it?

[Paladin UK]

OK pards...................777 whats yer `pinion on it?

Its gettin harder `n harder ta get the REAL HOLY BLACK here in the UK.
There are soooooooooo many do`s `n donts bein added by  HMG that I reckon dealers wont be bothered ta stock it in a few years time.

I have tried 777 in my pistolas and find that the ...`CRACK` is `orrible and  not t all like BP I have used pyrodex ( )
Paladin (Whats gotsta know ) UK

[Lars]

Been using 777 FFG in my guns for well over a year now and find it one of the very best BPs available. Loading for 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 C&Bs, 12,7X44R, and 12 and 16 gauge. It and Swiss, maybe Schutzen, are the only BPs I will use.

Shot it and Swiss both recently at a multi-day match. Both were standard velocity 44-40 200 grain loads that actually give nearly the same muzzle velocities (a bit under 1200 fps) in friends' rifles. Both were full case loads, with no fillers, wads, etc. under the bullets. NOONE, not even seasoned BP shooters, could tell any difference between the sounds, smells, amount of smoke, etc. of the two loads. Nor can I. Clean up and amount of powder fouling left in bore is very nearly the same.

Both Swiss and 777 FFG are more powerful than most (all?) of the other BPs. Also, with 777 FFg one does not need excessive lube and can even use normal hardwax lubed commercial cast bullets. With Swiss the old standard BP bullets work really well with high quality lubes, such as SPG and Javalina Alox -- again, absolutely no need for excessive lube. Both work best with soft bullets, pure Pb to 20:1 Pb:Sn, as does any low velocity cast bullet load.

Lars

[hellgate]

I love it. It is more powerful than any of the subs or BP (I've never tried Swiss though). I shoot .357 mag in the rifle and it meters through the powder measure nicely and is a little less corrosive to the brass than most subs. I get the same accurate enough loads with more power than other subs. We're talking 2" groups or less @50yds from the bench. Non fouling, easy cleanup. I only use it in the rifle. It's BP in the perCUSSIN' revolvers & shotgun. 777 does not flame nor BOOM like real BP or Pyrodex.

[Lars]

Hellgate,

You mention that 777 does not produce "flames". I presume that you are refering to the shower of still burning particles so common to Goex and other low quality BPs? I don't remember much of this at all with Pyrodex (even with large bore muzzle loaders) and none with either 777 or Swiss. I always considered the "flames" to be a mark of inferior/impure ingredients that just did not burn very well.

Lars

[Dick Dastardly]

Fer those that don't know no better, or think them puny lil sparks are "flames" from BP, here's an image typical of the flames displayed by Genuine Powder.  Subs can't do that.

Now, I'll see if the image attaches.

DD-DLoS

[Dick Dastardly]

I hate to rub it in to the sub shooter spark thinkers, but here's another image.  It is also typical of another shooter that shoots only Holy Black.  Again, none of 'em puny sparks.  Full daylight BOOM, FLAMES and white smoke.  Go ahead and eat yer hearts out sub shooters.  Subs jest ain't BP.  They're SASS legal, but they ain't black.

Further, this computer don't support fragrence transmission or I'd send along some of the sweet sulferous aroma of Genuine Powder as it burns.  Kinda of makes ya think of a VOLCANO!!!!

DD-DLoS

[Lars]

Simple nonsense Dick, ANY of the bulk powders, Pyrodex, 777, Swiss, etc. will produce what is in those pictures you posted. Simple nonsense -- missinformation if you wish to call it by another name.

Too bad you insist in living in a fantisy world and spreading missinformation!!
Lars

[Paladin UK]

I dont care what what flavour it is jest so long as it does this.................



Hell!! 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the reason I shoot the Holy Black IS the the flames `n sparks thet fly from those smokepoles



Paladin (Wot hopes he kin always get tha Holy Black ) UK

[Lars]

Paladin,

As regards "flames" from the muzzle and smoke I can vouch for Pyrodex, 777, Swiss, Goex, Dupont, etc. That picture could have been with any of them. No personal experience with Pinnacle or its modern twin, other than that they do make lots of smoke.

It is only the "sparks", those bits of very poorly burning powder that vary among the various types of charcoal-based BPs, that is 777, Pyrodex, Swiss, Schutzen, Dupont, Goex, Elefant, KIK, etc.

Many years ago I shot a stage in early, deeply overcast morning in forest of big old trees. Last target was a flying clay that one had to bust before it hit a bunch of trees about 30 yards away. I smashed the bird quickly and there was total silence from the posse. Why? Well, the "flame" from my 12 gauge went all the way to the bird, which went "poof". It was jokingly said by the posse that my BP load had "cooked" the bird. The load was a volume of Pyrodex-P equal to 1,0 oz of shot, card and fiber wads, 1,0 oz of shot. Gun was a Husqvarna underlever hammer double with 75 cm barrels choked full and 1/2 -- the 1/2 choked barrel is what I used.

I have also ignited paper, cardboard, cloth, etc. targets with Pyrodex, Goex, Dupont -- never shot any close enough with Swiss or 777 to know. However, I suspect strongly that it is the burning embers that start the fires.

Lars

[Paladin UK]

Way ta go Lars!!!
Paladin (what lurvs the holy black ) UK

[Lars]

Thanks Paladin!!

Over a lifetime of shooting various BPs there have been numerous memorable shots or series of shots. That includes hunting for foxes, deer, birds, trap shoots, CAS stuff, long range stuff, etc. One seldom has the audience that a CAS posse is, although trap squads can come close.

It was fun on my first BP CAS shoot with no misses for two days. The posse started calling me "Old Smokey". They steadfastly refused to call my no-miss stages "clean stages". Yes, I shot the last stage VERY slowly and VERY carefully.

Lars

[Will Ketchum]

A couple of years ago I loaded some 44-40s for my Henry with both 777 and Goex.  The 777 was a lot hotter and gave more recoil.  I shot some of the 777 loads in a double action S&W new Frontier model and the recoil was greater than my model 29 with full house hunting loads.

I sure wish they would make a less powerful powder of the same type.  As Lars said you can use regular hard waxed lubed bullets. This is why I loaded some for my Henry, I had ran out of BP lubed bullets.

When I asked Mike Daly of Hodgdon's about using it in my New Model number 3s he felt it was too powerful for those old guns and told me to stick to real BP or Pyrodex.  He said that 777 was devloped for inline muzzle loaders and it wasn't thought of as a cartridge powder.

Some have used caulking back rod as a filler for 777 but Hodgdon's doesn't approve of that.

Will Ketchum

[R D Henry]

To answer your question directly...I love the stuff, it's all I use across the board.

It's very hot, so you may want to do a lot of reading on the Hodgdon site before you dive in. Lord knows I've tested, tweaked, cussed, etc. til I finally got the load where I want it.

Lars pretty well summed up the features, so I won't repeat everything, except that I will emphasize clean-up is a breeze! It actually takes me less time than when I used Clays.

My profile pic is the first shot of the stage with a 45.  Tell me that ain't enough smoke!   

Good luck, but read the data page first!!!   

[Pukin Dog]

Whatever floats yer boat I guess.  I don't much care for it.  Like the boom and FLAMES of the real deal.  Plus I can get BP a heck of alot cheaper than 777.  With the Big Lube(TM) boolits, clean up is quick and easy so 777 has no advantage there.

This is a fantasy game for me and I don't like using some "in-line modern modern muzzle loader developed powder"

When I asked Mike Daly of Hodgdon's about using it in my New Model number 3s he felt it was too powerful for those old guns and told me to stick to real BP or Pyrodex.  He said that 777 was devloped for inline muzzle loaders and it wasn't thought of as a cartridge powder.

[Lars]

Pete,

One of my favorite 44-40 loads is just the one Hodgdon lists 30,0 grains volume (22,0 grains my weight) of 777 FFG and a 200 grain Meister hardcast, hard wax lubed bullet. It gives nearly the same muzzle velocity in a friend's rifle as 33.0 grains by volume of Swiss FFg and 200 grain bullet from Lyman's 427098 mold. Right at 1195 fps for both. So far, I can mix these loads and fellow BP shooters cannot tell the difference. Nor can I, in recoil, muzzle blast, smell (well a faint sulpher odor sometimes), amount of smoke.

The chamber pressure listed for that 777 FFg load is something like 7.500 psi or cup -- WAY below SAMMI specs for the 44-40.

I am at a loss to understand the reported great recoil of Hodgdon listed 777 FFG loads. I really cannot tell any difference between Hodgdon's recommended 777 FFG loads and normal, full loadings of Pyrodex or Goex FFG in either 44-40 or 45 Colt. Did folks use lots more 777 that Hodgdon lists?

I use 10-15% less 777 FFg than Pyrodex-P in all of my BP loads and get the same performance. This includes 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 C&B, 12 and 16 gauge, 12,7X44R.

Sometimes Mike Daley is one of Hodgdon's worst detractors. Hodgdon's own published data do not support his opposition to 777 FFg as an excellent powder for cartridges.

Larsz

[Paper Chaser]

Paladin, if you can't get the REAL stuff --- Triple 7 is hotter than other subs.  Never tried it myself but there are several pards here in my local club who use 777 and they like it.
Merry Christmas 

[hellgate]

Lars,
The sparks are not in my opinion desireable but I've sure seen flames with BP & Pyro but not with the other subs. Maybe I've just missed it.

[El Paso Pete]

 I won 2 lbs of 777 at the EoT, I gave it away.  I have been shooting real black powder since 1958 and have never used any of them substitutes and never will.   When I can't buy it anymore I'll make my own.   You can get what ya need on Ebay ta make it.   All ya need a rock tumbler, some 50 cal plus lead balls, and an Ebay account.

http://www.unitednuclear.com/bp.htm

[Dick Dastardly]

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the post on Powder manufacturing in small batches.  I agree with you, I'd also make my own Genuine Powder if I couldn't buy it.  I have to wonder how many government entities have rules against making yer own powder?  I poked around and found the tumblers.  They have some good ones, all the way up to 40 pounds.

I've got a good source for alder and a fine outdoor wood furnace that will make 200 pounds of fine charcoal at a batch.  I think I'll make me up a couple of batches of fine alder charcoal come spring.  We usually shut down the furnace sometime in April and the last batch of wood simply holds as charcoal till next heating season.

Hmmmm, my own private label Holy Black.  It's got me  thinkn' . . .

DD-DLoS

[BlaiseNSaddles]

I have been using 777.  Personally, I like the easier clean up.

Yes, there are special tumblers and companies that sell all the equipment to make real Black Powder (including the lead balls).  I would think though that many muncipalities not including insurance companies might be real worried about someone making BP in the garage.

Speaking of BP subs anyone comapred 777 to Pinnacle? 

I know they are both ascorbic acid based but figure there are some differences in the amount of other ingredients.  They strike me as not much different then the old sugar rocket propellants.