44-40 brass?

[LeftyLarry]

I am new to BPCR and CAS stuff but a long time muzzleloader, and I am working on getting put together to start reloading so.e black powder 44-40 but I am not sure where to start with brass. I know Starline is pretty much the standard, however I have a line on a quantity of Remington RP brass at a good price, my question is which case has the greater capacity. I understand I won't likely be able to get a full 40gns in there but I'd like to get as close as I can.

Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience with a greenhorn.

[The Pathfinder]

Larry, anymore with the modern brass 35 grs is usually the norm. The 40 gr charge was used in the old balloon head brass. You might be able to squeeze it in using a drop tube, vibration settling and compression, but it's not really worth the effort. R-P brass is usually the thickest around the neck, Winchester the thinnest and Starline somewhere in between and a good compromise. Keep in mind when seating the bullet and crimping you make experience some case failure, as in collapse around the neck. Be sure to slug your gun before selecting a source of bullet diameter (.427, .428, .429 etc) and try to find a bullet that will hold a goodly amount of black powder lube. I've got original and replica rifles and handguns in 44 WCF and unfortunately I've found not all of them like the same combination of components.   

[LeftyLarry]

Thanks Pathfinder, I have procured a big lube mold from Accirate Molds that should keep enough grease on them to go down my 20in Miroku 73 when propelled by the dirtiest of Goex.

Do you recommend using a separate crimp die to make sure everyrhing is good, or do you rely on the seating/ crimp action of a standard seating die?

[Coffinmaker]

  LeftyLarry   

I apologize in advance, as I'm not Pathfinder nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express (that I admit too), but I'll share a comment.

Bunches and Bunches of folks have reloaded for years and years with combination Seater/Crimper dies with "satisfactory" results.  I personally gave that up many Lustrum ago.  I have found separate seating and crimping dies results in better reloads and far fewer damaged/ruined cases.  From my view, combo dies are NOT recommended.

Hide and Watch

[Ridge Runner]

I use a separate RCBS profile crimp die with Starline brass, loaded with 38 grains Old Eynsford 3f.

[Montana Slim]

I've been using the Lee factory crimp with the Lee 44-40 die set for longer than I remember. I load the MAV-D big lube bullet over approximate 32 grains FF Schuetzen. Bullet sized .428 & fired in a variety of original & replica rifles & revolvers.

[Holsterguy]

I've had pretty good luck with starline brass. I use a bullet from accurate sized to, IIRC, 429, as that is what my rossi 92 and uberti bothe like. One huge lube groove.
Like Coffinmaker, I gave up trying to seat and crimp at the same time. Instead, I use a redding profile crimp. Works for me.
I use olde eynsford powder.

[greyhawk]

  LeftyLarry   

I apologize in advance, as I'm not Pathfinder nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express (that I admit too), but I'll share a comment.

Bunches and Bunches of folks have reloaded for years and years with combination Seater/Crimper dies with "satisfactory" results.  I personally gave that up many Lustrum ago.  I have found separate seating and crimping dies results in better reloads and far fewer damaged/ruined cases.  From my view, combo dies are NOT recommended.

Hide and Watch

I agree with Coffinmaker (proly get a prize for that!) never stayed in holiday inn express (or dont remember it) Days Inn a few times - went off the wrong side of the freeway late one night somewhere in Tennessee and found a little fleabitten motel up a side street ran by an indian dude, $35 for the night, put my credit card down and his eyes lit up, ah Aussie - you play cricket? - me play cricket? nah I hate it - no no no you aussie - aussies love cricket - sorry mate dumb game I reckon - why did I do that? ruined his whole week - I knew enough names I coulda pretended - he'd proly asked for me autygraph

So where were we - loading boolits eh? For Blackpowder loads i use my powder horn to fill the cases (eyeball height in the case) then use a compression die in a little turret press - die body has a groove turned on its shank at the correct depth for boolit - then seat boolit using combo die BUT its set so it doesnt crimp - then I will wipe the excess lube off the cases and crimp BY FEEL - I dont trim my cases while ever they will chamber ok so we have some variation in length - if you set the die hard and use your fist on the lever - cases get bent - you can feel that crimp die IF you are not seating boolit at the same time. Whatever works is fine - I dont mind time spent at the loading bench - others see it as a chore .......................................     

[ndnchf]

Check out this site. Just about everything you'd want to know about .44-40.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/44-40-Winchester?authuser=0

[The Pathfinder]

Larry, yes, I have an amazing collection of Lee factory crimp dies for most all of the calibers I have reloaded for and heartily recommend them as well.

[LeftyLarry]

Thank you all for sharing your input and experience. When I manage to get my reloading operation off the ground and have satisfactory (or disasterous) results I'll report back.

[Cliff Fendley]

Thanks Pathfinder, I have procured a big lube mold from Accirate Molds that should keep enough grease on them to go down my 20in Miroku 73 when propelled by the dirtiest of Goex.

Do you recommend using a separate crimp die to make sure everyrhing is good, or do you rely on the seating/ crimp action of a standard seating die?

Seating and crimping in one stage with 44-40 is pretty much asking for crushed cases.

[Galen]

44/40 is fun to shoot and a bit difficult to reload for a beginner. Like shooting reloading quality ammo takes practice. Keep your loads on the mild side to start with. Take your time.

[greyhawk]

Seating and crimping in one stage with 44-40 is pretty much asking for crushed cases.

Yeah thats my take too Cliff but my caveat always was I would rather make two stages of seat and crimp than put all my brass through a case trimmer (didnt own one most of my life - but got a lyman second hand a couple years back - still its my most unfavourite part of reloading)

[Pettifogger]

You asked about brass manufacturers.  After years of loading .44-40 and having guns with widely varying bores and chambers my order of preference is:  Winchester, Starline and Remington (a distant third).  Winchester brass has gotten hard to find and very expensive.  So, right now I use mainly Starline.

[Slamfire]

Loading is what you are comfy with , I use Lee 3- die set 44-40 & 4060 ,, set the Lee seat & crimp die with "just the  thought Of crimping" , and it will be just right, more than that you get a " bulge ".YMMV.


  coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Cliff Fendley]

Yeah thats my take too Cliff but my caveat always was I would rather make two stages of seat and crimp than put all my brass through a case trimmer (didnt own one most of my life - but got a lyman second hand a couple years back - still its my most unfavourite part of reloading)

Seat the bullet with the seater die set just where it closes an bell you put in the case. Then run it through a Lee FCD. No crushed cases and they will feed in anything I've tried them in.

[Bryan Austin]

I own the Holiday in Express so here is my 2 Million!!! 

Case crumpling/crushing is caused by one of two things;

1. Trying to seat and crimp the bullet to deep.
Let me explain...
When roll crimping and seating in the same step, many folks fail to adjust the roll to the longest case they have. This means measuring all of your cases and setting the crimp to the longest one. Why? Because if you set the crimp for the shorter case, the roll is forced into the top of the crimp groove and has nowhere to go but down, crumpling like an accordion! Soft lead can be more forgiving not not hard lead. This can still be an issue when crimping separately. Make sure when roll crimping that the crimp is set for the longer case. It doesn't take much.

2. Trying to seat a fat bullet into a narrow hole
Let me explain...
Trying to shove a .429/.430 bullet in a case mouth not properly bellowed and or trying to shove same into a neck resized for a .4255" Winchester JSP bullet will crumple the case. In order to accomplish such a task requires dilagence but often results in crushed case mouths and or bulges in case necks.

Over bellowing the case mouth overworks the brass and can cause splitting problems.

If the mouth is not properly bellowed, sometimes the case mouth stretches when the seating process is started BUT as it passes the first grease groove, it shrinks back down cuts into the following driving band, shaving the side of the bullet and then crushing the case mouth.

The Lee 3 die set resizes the case necks to the smallest diameters in my experiences. RCBS "Cowboy" dies resize case necks to better fit the larger .429/.430 bullets thus an exaggerated bellow is not needed, increasing case longevity.

The Lee FCD "squeezes" the neck to mimic Winchester's factory crimp from years ago. However, the die is set for .428" bullets. Trying to over squeeze this step on larger bullets can damage the case and is were I experienced 99% of my half a dozen case mouth splits.

Most commercial cast lead bullets are NOT true 44-40 "profile" bullets. A true 44-40 profile bullet has a continued curving O'give. If such a true 44-40 bullet is used, the far more superior crimp die is the Redding 44-40 Profile crimp die. This die is a MUST when used on bullets without a crimp groove or on Winchester/Remington JSP bullets.

Explanations and photos here:

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading?authuser=0

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/crimpingcrumpledbuckled-case-issues?authuser=0

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die?authuser=0

[Bryan Austin]

RCBS has the two different dies listed. Whether or not the resize dies are different...I do not know 

[Abilene]

If you use the Lee dies, you need to use their 44 mag/spcl powder thru die to open the mouth enough, if you are are using .429 bullets