Switching to my .38 Colt Kirst 1851s for awhile

[Tuolumne Lawman]

This is separate from the project, so it deserves its own thread.

Decided to switch to shooting my 1851 Konversions as my main match pistols for awhile.



I'll start with loading the Bear Creek heeled 140s.  My original load was 3.7 grains of Trail Boss (The healed bullet in the .38 long Colt case gives the same capacity as a 140 flat base in a .38 Special case, so I used that data).  It was rupturing cases with the heeled crimp, but not in the 148 wadcutters with standard crimp.  I am guessing, as I said before, that the wrinkle where the "petals" of the crimp die meet is initiating the tear.  I will first try a lighter crimp, since mine was so severe.  I'll also back down to about 3.4 grains.  I don't want to have to back down too much, as I want as much thump asI can get from the .38 Colt.

As far as leather, my Texas Jack Slim Jim I use on my Saber River 1860 Kirst will work for the 7.5" 1851, and I ordered a El Paso Saddlery "Territorian" Slim Jim from Midway for the 4" barreled 1851.  I have an Oklahoma Leather cartridge belt with 40 bullet loops on it.  Typically, I load 20 .44-40s for my Henry or 1866 Carbine, and 20 of the .45 Schofields.  If I weave a leather shoelace through the 20 loops I use for the 45 Schofield, the .38s should be secure enough

[Marshal Will Wingam]

That looks like a fun pair. It'll be interesting to hear how you like them compared to your 45's after a few matches.

I am guessing, as I said before, that the wrinkle where the "petals" of the crimp die meet is initiating the tear.  I will first try a lighter crimp, since mine was so severe.

Just as a thought, could you do a loose crimp first and rotate the cartridge a slight bit then finish the crimp?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

To be honest, the ONLY thing about the .38 Colt that has me excited to use the 1851s as main match revolvers is shooting the heeled bullets!  Hollow base wadcutters, while the work, are just lame, and totally anachronistic.  The 140 grain heeled bullet with a full powder charge has some thump and is absolutely historically accurate.  Even a hollow base 150 round nose is post 1892, so WAY wrong for my 1869 Persona.  Heeled base are just plain historical and gnarly looking.

When I get my loading bench moved and set up again next week, I plan on loading a couple hundred 140 heeled to get started.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Heeled base are just plain historical and gnarly looking.

Gnarly says it. I also like the look of them with the 140's. Totally cool stuff.

[Black River Smith]

Nice look and good choice on the heeled bullet.  I just finished re-reading your 38LC 'bullet development' posting (5 pages) about 3 weeks ago.  It prompted me to rework on a heeled base bullet rather than just shooting a 0.357 Spcl bullet out the 0.375 barrel.

Don't give-up on those beautiful 44's you recently put together.  The firearms and bullet boxes are still correct, also.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I tell myself that the Kirst Saber River is actually a private 5 shot LCC in .46 Rimfire to go with the Remington 5 shot .46 rimfire.  Need to dig out some .46 rimfire labels to be more correct.  My Persona is 1967 to 1870ish.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

As I recall, your .46 Rimfire labels looked good, too. Do you put them on cardboard boxes or wooden ones?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I use Cheyenne Cartridge box for .45 Schofield.  Buffalo Arms and Midway carry them $21/5

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks. I took a look. They're nice quality boxes. Everyone seems sold out right now so they must be popular.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have loaded a test batch using the Bear Creek 140 grain heeled bullet.  Dropped powder charge to 3.4 grains Trail Boss (down from 3.7 grains) and a much lighter crimp.  The tight crimp was causing the cases to tear from the pinch of the excessive crimp, down the side.  Going to the range tomorrow to see if they still split.

Interestingly enough, the 148 hollow base wadcutters with a tight crimp did not split.  I think it is from thr "pinched area" of the case mouth where the "petals" of the crimp diecome together and crease the case when a tight crimp applied.

[Major 2]

Thanks. I took a look. They're nice quality boxes. Everyone seems sold out right now so they must be popular.

At $4.00 + a box they should nice....

I make my own at $ 0.62 each ,
Boxes are from Papers Mart  $62 a hundred shipped ( same place Cheyenne gets their blank boxes )

Some of my Labels are from the internet , some from TL's collection , some from River City John 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

At $4.00 + a box they should nice....

I make my own at $ 0.62 each ,
Boxes are from Papers Mart  $62 a hundred shipped ( same place Cheyenne gets their blank boxes )

Some of my Labels are from the internet , some from TL's collection , some from River City John

Thanks. That sure does look like a better deal.

Are these the boxes? If so, what size(s) do you get?

[Major 2]

Yes Sir

055031   3 5/8 ''   2 1/4 ''   1 1/4 ''   100   $0.64 = $64.00   

These are perfect for  50 -  44 rounds  or  45's   

I've also use for 20 Rounds of 30/06 or 303 British in clips

same box for 9mm or 38,  though I cut  4 card board spacers

[Major 2]

I have bought

055040   4 1/4 ''   2 3/4 ''   1 1/2 ''   100   $0.70   

They work but are a bit big ....if you want to loose fill,  these will hold close to 100 , 38- 9MM

[Marshal Will Wingam]

That's great information, Major. Thanks for that. Those should do the trick nicely.

[Major 2]

Sadly they are out of stock  of 055031   3 5/8 ''   2 1/4 ''   1 1/4 ''   100   $0.64 = $64.00   

So I used the button , to contact me when they are available again..
I'm down to a hand full now and will need some....


a hundred lasted me about 2 years ...and I made & gave away a coupla doz.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Sadly they are out of stock  of 055031   3 5/8 ''   2 1/4 ''   1 1/4 ''   100   $0.64 = $64.00   

So I used the button , to contact me when they are available again..
I'm down to a hand full now and will need some....


a hundred lasted me about 2 years ...and I made & gave away a coupla doz.

That's a lot of boxes. Of course they're only cardboard and allowing for multiple calibers, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to go through a bunch. Does anyone else make the same type of boxes?

[Major 2]

That's a lot of boxes. Of course they're only cardboard and allowing for multiple calibers, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to go through a bunch. Does anyone else make the same type of boxes?

1st I apologize to TL  for the thread Hijack 

I would guess yes to other vendors , but I quit looking when I found Paper Mart.
I suppose  two  could split a case (100)  Like $31 each and get 50 boxes each....

I had no problem with 100 though, and I all but used my stash ...they are tough and hold up actually very well !

I sound like a commercial for Paper Mart ...but I have no dog in the fire ....  Just think $0.62 is way better the $4.25 or so per box....   

[Marshal Will Wingam]

My apologies for the hijack, too. Yeah, that price is right.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

No problem, good info!  Anyway, back on topic:

Success!  I ended up with 3.3 grains of Trail Boss, instead of the 3.7 grains I originally loaded.  I also reduced the crimp to just enough to grip the heel.  The end result, no split cases!  I do feel that it was due to the reduced crimp not giving the necks a sharp, rather than the reduced load.  I will say that the 3.3 grains with light crimp had noticeably less snap than the tight crimp ones.