Question on Pistols

[Robert Swartz]

I looked up the approved pistol list. I see the SAA Colt listed in 45. So, unlike CAS or SASS are the various reproduction pistols of other calibres not allowed?

[pony express]

No, all the "clones" are allowed, Vaqueros are fine, too. The only requirement I know of is it must be at least .38/.357 for the SAAs, and other period civilian handguns. The exception to this is actual military issued pistols in the various .30/7.62/32/8mm calibers.

[Sagebrush Burns]

Various repros and calibers are allowed - no problem (some shooting categories may be limited).

[1961MJS]

Hi

Drydock is our Ordnance Officer, if you own something ask if it's OK.  if you wanna buy something ask before you buy it.  The www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org website has a lot of the information you'll need.  SAA's don't fit my hand very well.  I tried a few Schofields, but based on our historical accuracy, I ended up with a 45 Colt version and shoot 45 Schofields in it.  I asked first.

Mike

[Robert Swartz]

Hi

Drydock is our Ordnance Officer, if you own something ask if it's OK.  if you wanna buy something ask before you buy it.  The www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org website has a lot of the information you'll need.  SAA's don't fit my hand very well.  I tried a few Schofields, but based on our historical accuracy, I ended up with a 45 Colt version and shoot 45 Schofields in it.  I asked first.

Mike

I looked up the allowed pistols. It listed the SAA Colt in 45.  A buddy and I have a couple of the Uberti SAA Colts in .357 for use in local CAS matches. The reason we settled on the .357's. He already had a Cimarron clone in .357 and a Winchester lever gun. He already has the reloader and dies. simplifies building ammo.

[Drydock]

All right then:  What you saw was not a list of "approved" handguns, (we have no such list) but a catalog of primary issue handguns of the era, provided only for information.  If you look in "GAF Class Structure and Battle rifle Standards",  you will find this: 

"-NOTE-  Handguns are related IN PERIOD to the rifle used.  It is understood that some handgun/rifle combinations may be difficult to impossible to achieve.  Reasonable substitutions are allowed.  Officers of the period often purchased their own sidearms.  (Notice I say "Handguns"?  Thats right.  Broomhandle fanatics rejoice!  For you DA revolver types, no loading aids of any type.) When in doubt, a single action revolver will always be acceptable."

Also:
" Handguns shall be Milspec, or of demonstrated military usage, related in period to the rifle used.  "Period" shall be defined as related to the adoption date of the rifle.  Civilian handguns shall be of appropriate period as determined by the rifle used.

Those wishing to use C&Bs may use 2 revolvers, charged and capped with 5 rounds each, carried in appropriate holsters.  Targets not hit by these 10 rounds shall be made up with the longarm.

All Calibers in the Milspec class will be milspec, with case by case exemptions granted.  (Example: a properly outfitted Winchester 95 carbine in .30-06 may be accepted in liu of the Milspec .30 US caliber)

All calibers will be loaded to CAS spec.  Rifle calibers will be all lead, no more than 405 grains lead at no more than 1500 FPS. Calibers greater than .501 may use up to a 480 grain bullet. Gas checks may be used at the Match directors discretion on rifle calibers of .32 or less.  (Call Ahead!)  Hangun calibers all lead at no more than 1200 fps.  Further requirements for minimum pistol loadings are under discussion and may be implemented should need be.

Handgun Calibers in "Civilian" classes ( Long action, Short action, Buffalo and Shotgunner ) will have a minimum bore diameter of .357. All Non Milspec handguns shall have a minimum bore diameter of .357.  For competition purposes, the short action WCF calibers (.44-40, .38-40) shall be considered "Pistol" caliber."

Also:
"Note we often refer to handuns, not single action revolvers.  It means just that.  That they should be related in PERIOD to the rifle used in the Milspec classes gives a great deal of flexibility.  MILITARY classes will be shot in accordance with Battle Rifle Standards"


Reasonable caliber substitutions are always allowed.  A .38/.357 is considered a reasonable substitute for most handgun calibers as needed.

Finally, at the bottom of the "list", is this line:
"This is not an exclusive list, the GAF recognizes all milspec weapons of the period, both primary and secondary, as well as those of demonstrated military usage."  (A .38 Single Action revolver is considered "of demonstrated military usage" for our purposes)

All of which is just a windy way of letting you know your .357 SA revolvers are just fine for GAF usage.

[Robert Swartz]

All right then:  What you saw was not a list of "approved" handguns, (we have no such list) but a catalog of primary issue handguns of the era, provided only for information.  If you look in "GAF Class Structure and Battle rifle Standards",  you will find this: 

"-NOTE-  Handguns are related IN PERIOD to the rifle used.  It is understood that some handgun/rifle combinations may be difficult to impossible to achieve.  Reasonable substitutions are allowed.  Officers of the period often purchased their own sidearms.  (Notice I say "Handguns"?  Thats right.  Broomhandle fanatics rejoice!  For you DA revolver types, no loading aids of any type.) When in doubt, a single action revolver will always be acceptable."

Also:
" Handguns shall be Milspec, or of demonstrated military usage, related in period to the rifle used.  "Period" shall be defined as related to the adoption date of the rifle.  Civilian handguns shall be of appropriate period as determined by the rifle used.

Those wishing to use C&Bs may use 2 revolvers, charged and capped with 5 rounds each, carried in appropriate holsters.  Targets not hit by these 10 rounds shall be made up with the longarm.

All Calibers in the Milspec class will be milspec, with case by case exemptions granted.  (Example: a properly outfitted Winchester 95 carbine in .30-06 may be accepted in liu of the Milspec .30 US caliber)

All calibers will be loaded to CAS spec.  Rifle calibers will be all lead, no more than 405 grains lead at no more than 1500 FPS. Calibers greater than .501 may use up to a 480 grain bullet. Gas checks may be used at the Match directors discretion on rifle calibers of .32 or less.  (Call Ahead!)  Hangun calibers all lead at no more than 1200 fps.  Further requirements for minimum pistol loadings are under discussion and may be implemented should need be.

Handgun Calibers in "Civilian" classes ( Long action, Short action, Buffalo and Shotgunner ) will have a minimum bore diameter of .357. All Non Milspec handguns shall have a minimum bore diameter of .357.  For competition purposes, the short action WCF calibers (.44-40, .38-40) shall be considered "Pistol" caliber."

Also:
"Note we often refer to handuns, not single action revolvers.  It means just that.  That they should be related in PERIOD to the rifle used in the Milspec classes gives a great deal of flexibility.  MILITARY classes will be shot in accordance with Battle Rifle Standards"


Reasonable caliber substitutions are always allowed.  A .38/.357 is considered a reasonable substitute for most handgun calibers as needed.

Finally, at the bottom of the "list", is this line:
"This is not an exclusive list, the GAF recognizes all milspec weapons of the period, both primary and secondary, as well as those of demonstrated military usage."  (A .38 Single Action revolver is considered "of demonstrated military usage" for our purposes)

All of which is just a windy way of letting you know your .357 SA revolvers are just fine for GAF usage.

Thanks, appreciate the answer. I don't mind long winded, lol. Hopefully my buddy and I can get to a couple of these next year.

[Whitehorse Lane]

Looking forward to it Bob, drag out some of the old gear

[Lord Eoin MacKenzie]

Should SAA be 5 1/2 or 7 1/2 Barrel?  My SAA Clone has a 6 1/2 barrel but needs work.   Or can I get bye with a 1861 Navy conversion?   I am still working on my Krag carbine, 
Some of my Uniform Pieces will have to wait on how my CHF steadies out for sizes. thanks for the info,   Rough riders Outfit,

[Drydock]

Everything you say there can be used, but in order of historic preference:  The 5.5" was issued to the RRs.  The 7.5" was still in service in some units, mostly issued to USV or NG.  The 1851 Navy conversion was still in service aboard some USN ships.  All can be used, but the 5.5" fits the portrayal best.

6.5"?  Is that real or a mistype?  Though you can use it if you want.  Private purchase custom revolver perhaps?  Same for the 1861 conversion.  It is thought some RRs still had personally owned sidearms, particularly those that used issue ammunition, ie .45 Colt or .38 Long Colt.

[Coffinmaker]

   Lord MacKenzie   

First a CAVEAT:  I have no dog in this fight.  I don't play GAF.  Nor BAM.  Didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express that I admit to.  However:

In the grand scheme of things, it should be noted, often Colt SAA came out of Depot Maintenance with shortened barrels.  Also lots and lots of miss-matched numbers.  Ergo, I would supposition any SAA with a barrel length of 5 1/2, 6 1/2 or 7 inches would be acceptable.  To my knowledge (admittedly limited), SAA were NOT cut back to 4 3/4.  If paring with a Krag Rifle, an 1861 conversion would be a stretch as at that point in time, 1861 conversions would not have been in service as other than private purchase.  Maybe.
Almost.  Sorta.  Grain of salt and all the ballyhoos.  Burma Shave.

Hide and Watch

PS:  If memory serves (shaky at best) Colt did not convert 1861s to military contract nor for civilian sale in mass.  Again, could have been acquired as a personal purchase. 

[Drydock]

Yes, the only conversions accepted for Military issue were the 1860/71 RIchards Conversions, 1200 for the US Army, and a similar number of 1851 R/M conversions for the USN in the mid 1870s.  No others.  The USN skipped the SAA, and kept the 51s until the New Army & Navy DA of 1889.  Ships on foreign station that had not rotated home in that period  (The USS Monocacy comes to mind) would still have the older weapons on board

BUT!  Private purchase was extensive, though not usually of the larger belt revolvers.  Many a soldier/sailor/marine kept a .38 S&W pocket revolver tucked away somewhere.  I personally think this is underrepresented, and like seeing infantry portrayals using these kind of sidearms. 

[pony express]

Concerning those S&W top breaks, how would said soldier/sailor have carried it? I suppose probably they carried them in their pocket, or kept it stowed in their gear most of the time, but that probably wouldn't do for GAF purposes. Inquiring minds( who have a recently acquired S&W#2 DA) want to know.

[Lord Eoin MacKenzie]

DRYDOCK,  my 6 1/2 clone is a west german clone that seems to be an early Hawes/Bounty Hunter in .357.  I'll have my gunsmith, look for a 5 1/2  barrel in 45 for use in the future.

[Drydock]

Probably in pocket, or in his haversack, or even an ammunition pouch, but for our purposes a simple frog holster will suffice.

[DeaconKC]

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. Guilty of being a Broomhandle addict, so could a Broomie be used with shoulder stock as a rifle?
Now to find a good Pattern 14 or Model 1917 for BAMM...

[Drydock]

Yes, but only as a rifle, you have to declare  it one way or another.  IE the stock stays on, or it stays off.

[DeaconKC]

Yes, but only as a rifle, you have to declare  it one way or another.  IE the stock stays on, or it stays off.

Thanks Colonel!