What does anyone think of...

[Forty Rod]

...the Spencer as a buff gun?

Reason I'm asking is one I saw in a museum in Salt Lake City many moons ago: .56-56 Spencer as stock as a stove from the front of the reciever back with one exception...more on that in a bit...but with a "Hawkenized" barrel, forearm, under rib, and wiping stick.  28" octagonal barrel, silver blade front sight in a copper base, full buckhorn iron rear sight on the barrel, and pewter (?) nose cap and ferrules.

The butt stock looked like a factory original from the right , but had a beavertail Hawken-style cheek piece on the left.

Quite underpowered for buff, but style points out the ol' wazoo.

A few tacks would have made it perfect.

I'd like to have one just because.

[Forty Rod]

Apparently this gun was owned by an early Mormon pioneer and scout who picked it following the war.  It was allegedly redone by the Freund Brothers in Wyoming to be more like his single shot muzzle loader.  I don't know that it was ever used as a buffalo gun, but it sure looks nifty neato keen.

[Bristow Kid]

Forty Rod did you get any pictures of it?  Sounds like something to see for sure.

[Will Ketchum]

...the Spencer as a buff gun?

Reason I'm asking is one I saw in a museum in Salt Lake City many moons ago: .56-56 Spencer as stock as a stove from the front of the reciever back with one exception...more on that in a bit...but with a "Hawkenized" barrel, forearm, under rib, and wiping stick.  28" octagonal barrel, silver blade front sight in a copper base, full buckhorn iron rear sight on the barrel, and pewter (?) nose cap and ferrules.

The butt stock looked like a factory original from the right , but had a beavertail Hawken-style cheek piece on the left.

Quite underpowered for buff, but style points out the ol' wazoo.

A few tacks would have made it perfect.

I'd like to have one just because.

What you describe is known as a "Gemmer" they were converted to a Hawken style stock by J.P. Gemmer who took over the Hawken Shop after the retirement of Sam Hawkins.  He converted many Spencers. Sharps and even some Rolling Blocks. There is some confusion as to whether Gemmer converted all these guns or perhaps other gunsmiths used Hawkins barrels.  He also put his own style of trap door on some muzzle loading plains rifles.

Liver Eater Johnson carried a Gemmer Spencer which is now in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron Nebraska.  You can find it pictured on page 125 of "Firearms of the American West"

Will Ketchum

[Forty Rod]

Joss, my Henry is my mainline buffalo gun at the present time. 

PC, at the time I was with a tour group of 18-20 year olds and there wasn't a camera  in the whoile mob.

Might have been a Gemmer, Will.  We're talkin' about 55 years of faulty memory here.  All I really have is a picture in my head.  Seems the gun had belonged to Thomas Ricks from up in Cache Valley, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Ol Gabe]

I have a Davide Pedersoli catalog from about 5 years ago that shows a rifle of the above description, the ad copy reads as follows, complete with translation verbage, i.e., linguistical errs not always corrected by printers:
1874 Sharps "Gemmer". A great personalization, today called customized, made by J. P. GEMMER, who previously worked with the famous gunsmith producing Hawkens in St. Louis. Under specific requirements from buffalos' hunters fond of the rifles produced by the master gunsmith, Gemmer made a Sharps model using some typical Hawken parts, such to make it look similar to this rifle. The similarities are the stock with cheeck piece, the front band on the forend, the barrel wedges holding the forend to the barrel, the shaped butt plate, the adjustable sight equipped with "buckhorn", as well as the underbarrel where it was inserted the rod used to clean the barrel and eventually eject the cartridge.
Interesting use of vernacular in the above description copied directly from the catalog. The model pictured in the catalog looked like it had the standard Sharps lock and was set up with double triggers, two wedge pins, German Silver nosecap on the fore-end and an octagonal barrel, available in 45-70 and 45-90. It looked pretty slick for around $1,400, m/l. A check of the Davide Pedersoli website did not show the same rifle, perhaps it may still be available through one of their Master Dealers such as Flintlock's Etc. in Richmond, MA.
Yepper, style points would certainly be a big plus with that target thumper, I can here Jay Weber now..."Well Gabe, you missed it again, but at least you did it in style!"
Best regards and watch out, I'm guessin' we'll see some soon on the Firing Line!
'Ol Gabe
P.S. Costner dropping a running Buff with a Henry while riding with the herd was plausible in the movie, history has recorded through journals that many others did similar types of feats. George A. Custer was said to have shot one with revolvers while riding alongside at full tilt, well, at least HE said it happened that way. Of course the American Plains Indians harvested Buffalo from horseback using spears and short 'Pony' Bows, called such as they were perfect for close-in work on a Pon. The Braves rode right alongside the Buffalo and shot an arrow directly in and down into the animals lungs and heart. At such short range the small bow had an extremely strong thrust and was popluar for this type of hunting.

[Forty Rod]

I have a friend who owns a Pedersoli Gemmer-Sharps in .45-70.  It's a nice looking rifle, but they put a decorative raised piece on the wrist that is pure-dee UNcomfortable!!!  Got some sharp edgses and the wrist is smaller at the top and bottom.

I've tried to buy it from him several times, but he won't take a hundred dollars for it. (Cheap, unfriendly bas....booger.) 

I'd knock the edges off that stupid feature on both sides in a second.

[TAkaho kid]

There is a sporterized gemmer style Spencer currently listed by Track of The Wolf. I suppose it would work on Buff's but I don't think it would be my first choice. However, I saw a real nice Spencer sport model (not a Gemmer) being actioned off a few years back. It was a real gem, pewter forend, long barrel, 28"?? I always thought that one day I would get Ramano Rifle to build me up one.




http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=79&styleId=271&partNum=AAA-860

[Black River Smith]

Have to admit it has some really nice lines to it.  I am sure it was just a moderinzing attempt back then.  An attempt by Gemmer (here in St. Louis) to create business in the dwindling Hawkins market, after he bought the business in ~1865.  There is a picture of one of Gemmers Spencer conversions in the book by Charles Hanson called 'The Plains Rifle' page 28.  He did the same to Sharps also.

Black River Smith

[Glenn]

There are a lot of tales from the old west of Buff killed with Spencers.  They had enough punch but not enough range for market hunting.  I recall one account where they had to split the herd in a stampede and a Spencer carbine proved very effective.  There was a post on the net of a guy in Montana that killed a Buff with his 56-56 Spencer(recent history). The most famous "Hawkenized" Spencer was the one Liver Eatin' Johnson owned, he killed that Indian boy to get it. There is some speculation that it may not have been as powerful as he hoped.
I'd love to have one to go with my Hawken(J&S) and my Spencer rifle.  I think there is one on Gun Broker but I'm not rich.

[Oregon Bill]

I like the Gemmer conversions -- especially having a wiping stick under the barrel. But then I am also partial to the Ballard No. 5 Pacific, which also is fitted with a wiping stick. But I suspect that the Spencer, Gemmered or not, was a close-range deal on bison -- a meat gathering tool and a humdinger for running bison on horseback. I sure wouldn't want to try to "get a stand" with a Spencer beyond 200 yards!

[Ol Gabe]

TAkaho kid commented "I always thought that one day I would get Ramano Rifle to build me up one."
Romano Rifle Co. has a solid record amongst reenactors for their version of the Spencer as well as other fine rifles and accoutrements. After searching for a maker of original scopes, I ran across a review of Romano Rifle Co.in BPCR News last summer, Larry got high marks for his 'historically-accurate-right-down-to-the-dings' Malcolm rifle scopes. Handmade in America by a fellow shooter? Yep, and he is very interested in providing a quality product for the American shooter, we talked at length as to how it would be used, what distances, etc., as well as the ramifications and limitations of the product, something not all makers dfo these days. His website is at: www.romanorifle.com
Got it ordered, it'll go on my Pedersoli 45-70 Billy Dixon, at least now I'll be able to see the targets I miss with a little more ease.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe

[Forty Rod]

Bill, you got good taste.  I'm saving for #5 Pacific in .45-70.  I shot one a couple of years ago up in Utah and fell in love.

Of course, my grandmother's maiden name was Ballard, so I already leaned that direction.

[Silver Creek Slim]

The following is what Frank Mayer had to say about Buff running with Spencers, Henrys, and Win '73s.

It always amused me at the inefficiency of some of the buffalo runners, who hunted on horseback, at the strange weapons they thought adequate to kill tough old buff. These weapons ranged all the way from cap and ball percussion revolvers to carbines and rifles of divers sorts, most of them single shot fusils. A few did affect repeating rifles or carbines, the majority of which were Spencer cabines and old gun-metal receiver Henry rifles, both rim fire. The Spencer was the more effective. It was .56 caliber and carried seven cartridges. Later on in the heel of the game quite a number of .44-40 '73 Model Winchesters came in, but they lacked the knock-down-and-drag-out qualities necessary for buffalo work. I have seen one full magazine (16 shots) expended on the final bagging of only five buffalo, and that, too, fired by a man who knew his business. Shooting from the back of a running horse was always uncertain. I wanted none of it. I wanted efficiency. That was my German nature to demand that.

From "The Buffalo Harvest" by Frank Mayer.

Slim

[TAkaho kid]

Posted this on the open rage but figured given the discussion you all might enjoy it.


Graham Burnside, Guns & Ammo, April 1960

"More than once I have seen modern shooters handle a Spencer cartridge and end up lampooning the effectiveness of such an "abortion." ......

Once I was as naïve about the Spencer ammunition. So naïve in fact that I set up shooting facilities in my barn at the hack of the lot. I placed two large hales of compressed straw against the far wall, stepped hack, loaded my Ball carbine with the •56 - •50 cartridge, (45 grains of black with a 350 grain ball) and touched off. The ammunition I was using was original Civil War contract stuff made by C. D. Leet. The report and recoil from that chunky little carbine was very respectable; a burst of flame shot forward about two and one-half feet, and the carbine came back enough that I knew I was holding a man-sized type thing. Careful examination of the damage gave credence to the apparent power of the round. At the rear of the first bale of straw one could find a fine handful of thoroughly chewed straw flakes. Behind the second hale the story was repeated. Then 1 noticed a •50 caliber hole – neat and perfectly round – passing through the seasoned old wall to the outside. A dash to the area beyond the confinements of the barn produced a badly dented 500 gallon oil tank. That Spencer ball had dented the tank for an area of about a square foot and caromed out over the neighborhood. At this juncture, it seemed prudent to cease firing operations and tear down one of Mr. Leet's product to ascertain just what he loaded them with. I thought that possibly the black powder had somehow been reduced to dust and the explosion had actually been a detonation. One round from the same box was dismantled and found to contain the cleanest blackest f.f.g. you have ever seen. I have always held a healthy respect for Spencer ammo ever since."

[Black River Smith]

Nice story and thanks.  The people over on the Spencer board would probably appreciate reading that also.

Proud owner of the newer Spencer 56/50's.

Black River Smith

[James Hunt]

Luther S. Kelly (Yellowstone Kelly) although not a commercial hide hunter was never the less a hunter/trapper of excellent reputation before he started guiding for the military, and he used the .44 rimfire round first in a henry and then a 66 to kill alot of large game including elk and buffalo - amazing to me. Of course these hunters had more experience in a few months than we had in a life time. I look thru the smoke of a .50-70 and think "boy I hope that was enough gun for that deer", I guess like guy's who use a .300 mag on woodland deer I use mass and velocity to make up for my lack of hunting skills.

[Two Flints]

Hi,

Saw this ad for a Spencer-Gemmer and thought I would pass it along to this thread.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6736417

Two Flints

[Forty Rod]

Ain't they neat, in spite of being under powered.

[Ed Clintwood]

...the Spencer as a buff gun?

I also think the Spencer is cool and I'm waiting for mine to arrive - BUT, what about the 1886 Winchester in .45-90?