Maximum BP .38 Spl Loads in Colt 1851 Cartridge Conversions

[SPJ]

Hello all,

I am looking into taking on the project of converting a Uberti Colt 1851, and I have been wondering how powerful of a black powder cartridge I could use in the gun. I am hoping that maybe some of you others have already tried this out on your own and that I can learn from you.

I have read a lot of conflicting information online on what the case capacity of .38 Special brass can be. With some saying that  you can get 30 grains in 38 special brass with compression (https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...or-357.795086/), and specifically 25 grains into Starline brass. While others saying that it is hard to bet as much as 20 grains into a case, even though the original .38 Special load was 21.5 grns.This post form castboolits ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...BP-Ballistics ) and this old issue of Shields Magazine ( https://www.google.com/ books / edition ... sec = frontcover) give their most powerful loads as 23 grains of powder and a 160 grain bullet.  It seems that this is all due to the make of different brands of 38 Special, with some having different wall thickness, and others having ballooned or solid cartridge heads.

Now the site for the Kirst Konverter of the Colt Navy ( https://www.kirstkonverter.com/1851-61-colt-navy.html ) says that their cylinders are not for cartridges "exceeding 1.425" overall length ". So what I want to figure out is if I can get of load of powder greater than the original 21.5 grains into a cartridge with an OAL that will fit.

I would plan to use Goex fffg since that should give me the most powder per volume, at least according to this reference (https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm)

I would definitely want to use a hollow base bullet in order to engage the .375 rifling of the Colt Navy barrel, but I cannot find molds for HB bullets meant for a Colt. I should also be able to load more powder too given the extra space from the hollow base. I am told that companies like Accurate Molds can make a custom mold design to order. So I may have to do that.

I also found this video by Mike Belivue about his own cartridge conversions. After 8 minutes into the video he says that you can take one of the current Howell gated conversion cylinders and fit a cartridge using a 125 gr bullet, with him specificaly using a 28 grn snakebite bullet. That makes me wonder if I can make a custom die for HB bullets around that mass, like the person in this like who modified a Lyman 35870 mold to have a larger base and reduced the mass from 150 to 130 grns http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?363656-Some-questions-for-the-technical-ones-on-hollow-base-38-cal-boolits

Mike even says that Kenny Howell used to make conversions that allowed full length 38 specials. I imagine he achieved the longer cylinder length needed for that with a shorter conversion ring, or removing metal from the forcing cone of the barrel, or both. I looked at other old Howell conversion that took full 38 spl and they have a hammer mounted firing pin instead of a rebounding one in the conversion ring. I wounder if that is related to the use of 38 spcl cartridges too. Can anyone tell me about those old Kenny Howell conversions?

To sum things up again, before I go investing a lot of money into this, what would be the most powerful BP load I can make for a conversion revolver? What ratio of bullet weight to powder charge should I go for? I also know that I may have an easier time with the flat end of a wad-cutter, but I want to go with a HB RNFP because of improved aerodynamics, and simply for the challenge.

Thank you

[Lefty Dude]

Shoot that 51 as it should be. Round balls & Black powder !!!

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My Good Monsieur SPJ

you asked, (short form)
>To sum things up again, before I go investing a lot of money into this, what would be the most powerful BP load I can make for a conversion revolver?

Alrighty... Short Answer:
- It Depends ™
it depends on bullet weight, bullet diameter, amount of powder, brand of powder (ie old eyensford is often more energetic than Elephant for example), CRIMP!
cylinder gap and other stuff.

Unless you have a specific goal, such as trying to achieve a minimum terminal energy for specific knock-down targets, I actually believe you are overthinking this.
You are not going to make a particularly powerful BP load in the .36/.38 that will even approach a warm .38 spcl

Now, for a slightly longer discussion:
First, a good solid crimp is essential
Second , in BP a heavier bullet usually means more energy, but as you noted, at the cost of overall length
Hollow base bullets seem good, but often have their own problems

People who needed a good heavy .36 bullet for knock-downs often went with the SnakeBite

Many of us are tending towards the .38 Long Colt Heal Based bullet for a variety of similar reasons - the heal-based bullet
also gives you more room for powder.

a great thread by Tuolumne Lawman about his current project

"The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!"
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=63237.0

here are some links for further reading

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=60431.0
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=58523.0
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=63312.0

Sorry for a lack of specifics, but your post contains so many different issues it sort of leads off into a plethora of tangents
and the question "the most powerful BP load I can make " sort of begs the question "Why do you want that?"

BTW if you absolutely need/want the most velocity, just use triple 7.

hope this helps as a start

Prof Marvel

[Coffinmaker]

  OK!!  My Turn!!  My Turn!!  Call ME!!   

I'm of two minds (Don't bring me into this) so I must start with  "BUTT WHY??"  Why on earth would you want to run "Maximum" or even "over Maximum" loadings in a 38Spl???  What are you trying to accomplish??  I personally think your direction is more than a little "misguided".  From the standpoint of a Gunsmith I might even tend toward "Stupid."

Technical:  The original 1851 Colts were Iron Frame'd.  Uberti are Steel Framed.  Much much stronger.  The R&D Cylinders and the Kirst Cylinders are much much stronger than anything made in the era.  The overall length restriction is a result of the reduction of chamber depth from the Breach Ring.

Your best bet for a bullet is the ammunition project honcho'd by Tuolumne Lawman.  Then I would suggest you invest in a "stuck case" remover.  38 Spl cases are not known for strength.  You're going to be leaving the front end of a lot of separated cases in the chambers.

Don't even consider your project with an "out of the box" Uberti.  Before you proceed you absolutely MUST fix the abysmal Barrel to Arbor fit, per the tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger.  Good Luck.

[Abilene]

Or just buy an 1851 Richards-Mason.  Cheaper in the long run if you don't already have the percussion gun, and then shoot regular length .38 Spcl.  And by the way, in mine I shoot a 125gr TC bullet crimped in the crimp groove, with ~19gr of FFFg Goex, which gives a small compression.  Plenty fun.

[SPJ]

Greetings My Good Monsieur SPJ

you sked, (short form)
>To sum things up again, before I go investing a lot of money into this, what would be the most powerful BP load I can make for a conversion revolver?

Alrighty... Short Answer:
- It Depends ™
it depends on bullet weight, bullet diamter, amount of powder, brand of powder (ie old eyensford is often more energetic than Elephant for example), CRIMP!
cylinder gap and other stuff.

Unless you have a specific goal, such as trying to achieve a minimum terminal energy for specific knock-down targets, I actually believe you are overthinking this.
You are not going to make a particularly powerful BP load in the .36/.38 that will even approach a warm .38 spcl

Now, for a slightly longer discussion:
First, a good solid crimp is essential
Second , in BP a heavier bullet usually means more energy, but as you noted, at the cost of overall length
Hollow base bullets seem good, but often have their own problems

People who needed a good heavy .36 bullet for knock-downs often went with the SnakeBite

Many of us are tending towards the .38 Long Colt Heal Based bullet for a variety of similar reasons

a great thread by Tuolumne Lawman about his current project

"The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!"
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=63237.0

here are some links for further reading

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=60431.0
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=58523.0
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=63312.0

Sorry for a lack of specifics, but your post contains so many different issues it sort of leads off into a plethora of tangents
hope this helps as a start

Prof Marvel

Thank you, sorry I know I go over several issues. I don't mean to overwhelm, but I have been thinking a lot about this

[Professor Marvel]

My Good SPJ -

No worries , if we didn't have new stuff to yap about discuss we wouldn't have any threads at all!
Oh oops - I added some stuff before I saw the new posts...

----
Many of us are tending towards the .38 Long Colt Heal Based bullet for a variety of similar reasons - the heal-based bullet
also gives you more room for powder.


and the question "the most powerful BP load I can make " sort of begs the question "Why do you want that?"
In other words do you have a specific reason/goal in mind?

for example I was discussing the use of 200 gr .38 bullets in strong modern .38 specials. I recieved a bit of pushback
ranging from "you'll blow up your gun" to "why?" .

My answer was "I am (and still am ) trying to duplicate the old so-called "200 gr .38 police load" and the old british "200gr .38 Webley Manstopper"
load for research and educational purposes"

BTW if you absolutely need/want the most velocity, just use triple 7
---
And as Abilene pointed out if you don't absolutyely enjoy other frustrating gunsmithing, you may be better off with a
commercial pre-built conversion.

SO, what are your goals?

[SPJ]

My Good SPJ -

No worries , if we didn't have new stuff to yap about discuss we wouldn't have any threads at all!
Oh oops - I added some stuff before I saw the new posts...

----
Many of us are tending towards the .38 Long Colt Heal Based bullet for a variety of similar reasons - the heal-based bullet
also gives you more room for powder.


and the question "the most powerful BP load I can make " sort of begs the question "Why do you want that?"
In other words do you have a specific reason/goal in mind?

for example I was discussing the use of 200 gr .38 bullets in strong modern .38 specials. I recieved a bit of pushback
ranging from "you'll blow up your gun" to "why?" .

My answer was "I am (and still am ) trying to duplicate the old so-called "200 gr .38 police load" and the old british "200gr .38 Webley Manstopper"
load for research and educational purposes"

BTW if you absolutely need/want the most velocity, just use triple 7
---
And as Abilene pointed out if you don't absolutyely enjoy other frustrating gunsmithing, you may be better off with a
commercial pre-built conversion.

SO, what are your goals?

Well my main goal is to test some of the limits of mid 19th centuary handgun technology, to see how a 19th centuary gunsmith could have modified different revolvers to their peak performance. I am making an exception to ignore the metal alloys used in the cylinder and barrels though since modern ones are stronger

So I want to figure out how a Colt Navy conversion in black powder can be made a better man-stopper. Since it was originally in 38 Colt, which was later replaced by the .38 Spcl due to performance against the Moro in the Philippines. That's why I'm not too concerned with dropping the bullet mass to gain more powder space, since lighter bullets can be more lethal at higher pressures and speeds, at least according to my limited understanding of ballistics.

[Coffinmaker]

Ah So Padawan.

First, some enlightenment.  Gained from First Hand First Person experience.  There is no such thing as a "Man Stopper."  I can attest, it matters not what you hit the adversary with, if you don't do deep penetration with maximum organ damage, your adversary may well kill you while expiring.

Light bullets, going very fast also give up their energy very fast.  Water jugs and ballistic gelatin are fine for "demonstration" purposes but do not really mimic ballistics in a human.  Or animal.  It's theory, nicely demonstrated mostly by people whom have never been in a gun fight.  I have survived several.  I have actually seen 38+P stopped at the first rib.  The perp was real annoyed.  I have seen big slow flat point .45 punch right thru bone and keep right on going thru.

In actuality, following the dismal failure of the 38 (any 38) against the Moro, the U.S. Military went to the 45 ACP.  And in fact shipped a large number of warehoused Colt SAA to the Philippines.  What ever you do, do not base your assumptions on TV.  A 44 Manglem does not throw the victim back out the door.  Just a very heavy "flinch."  The prime idea, is the bigger hole lets' in more air and lets out more blood.

Rest assured, your embarking on a passable fun project.  It's already been done.  There are books on it.  Re-doing the same experiment and expecting a different result is ....................

Hide and Watch

[pony express]

So I want to figure out how a Colt Navy conversion in black powder can be made a better man-stopper. Since it was originally in 38 Colt, which was later replaced by the .38 Spcl due to performance against the Moro in the Philippines. That's why I'm not too concerned with dropping the bullet mass to gain more powder space, since lighter bullets can be more lethal at higher pressures and speeds, at least according to my limited understanding of ballistics.

The Moro problem wasn't fixed by adding 3 grains of powder and 8 grains more lead to a .38 Long Colt, it was addressed by going back to the .45 Colt, and eventually the .45 ACP.

And BP doesn't really respond to lighter bullets and very slightly higher powder charges the  way smokeless can. If light bullet and highest possible velocity are the goals, stay with percussion, and load round balls over compressed 777. That should top 1000fps,but with only about an 80gr ball, you're still in .380 auto performance range.

[SPJ]

Ah So Padawan.

First, some enlightenment.  Gained from First Hand First Person experience.  There is no such thing as a "Man Stopper."  I can attest, it matters not what you hit the adversary with, if you don't do deep penetration with maximum organ damage, your adversary may well kill you while expiring.

Light bullets, going very fast also give up their energy very fast.  Water jugs and ballistic gelatin are fine for "demonstration" purposes but do not really mimic ballistics in a human.  Or animal.  It's theory, nicely demonstrated mostly by people whom have never been in a gun fight.  I have survived several.  I have actually seen 38+P stopped at the first rib.  The perp was real annoyed.  I have seen big slow flat point .45 punch right thru bone and keep right on going thru.

In actuality, following the dismal failure of the 38 (any 38) against the Moro, the U.S. Military went to the 45 ACP.  And in fact shipped a large number of warehoused Colt SAA to the Philippines.  What ever you do, do not base your assumptions on TV.  A 44 Manglem does not throw the victim back out the door.  Just a very heavy "flinch."  The prime idea, is the bigger hole lets' in more air and lets out more blood.

Rest assured, your embarking on a passable fun project.  It's already been done.  There are books on it.  Re-doing the same experiment and expecting a different result is ....................

Hide and Watch

The Moro problem wasn't fixed by adding 3 grains of powder and 8 grains more lead to a .38 Long Colt, it was addressed by going back to the .45 Colt, and eventually the .45 ACP.

And BP doesn't really respond to lighter bullets and very slightly higher powder charges the  way smokeless can. If light bullet and highest possible velocity are the goals, stay with percussion, and load round balls over compressed 777. That should top 1000fps,but with only about an 80gr ball, you're still in .380 auto performance range.

Okay "Man stopper" was a poor choice of words. Maybe I should be more specific and say more lethal, or potentially lethal. Can you suggest any sources I should look at? I will look at Professer Marvel's links more too.

If bullet mass really matters more than powder charge when it comes to BP loads then maybe to meet my ideal goal I really will have to go as far as removing mass from the revolver frame or barrel to fit a custom longer cylinder. Thats what it looks like is done with other factory conversions and with the older Kenny Howell Conversions (https://www.riverjunction.com/5153). Or use specialty bullets like a solid lead hollow point. Oh well, not the easier solution I was hoping for but if that's what it takes then at least I have an answer. Thank you

[Galloway]

I dont think the conversions were made to improve performance, i think they were done to make loading and unloading easier using two already available calibers 38 rim and centerfire. As far as maximum performance goes i can get 30gr fff under a round ball in a clean chamberd uberti, in my cimarron conversion i load 20grs fff under a 150gr lrn in 38 long colt brass, and feel its over compressed.

Edited by Moderator

[Major 2]

This post is deleted  as it is no longer relevant ...Mod.

[Professor Marvel]

The .36 Navy was used effectively by experts such as Hickock because it had good penetration and the man was insanely accurate with it.
Plus, the use of pure soft lead that seems to deform readily on impact.

Due to burn rates, pressure curves , etc etc There is a velocity limit when using BP, it seems to max out at ~ 900-1000 fps in a handgun
and somewhere between 1800-2000 fps in a rifle.

Thus If one wanted "more" , one needed into increase bullet mass, and that was done by increasing the caliber.
That';s how they ended up with those monster guns, like the 4 Bore African double.
and the .44 and .45 cal pistols.

As our good Coffin has pointed out ( from, gawd help him, actual field experience) what actually works is Big, Slow, Soft, Flatnose bullets.
There was a good reason that the US military went with the .45 ACP: It replicated the ballistics of the  .45 Colt in a 5"  barrel
The  .45 ACP is Big, ~900 fps, only thing missing is soft lead(was not in the spec) and flatnose.

Alloq me to walk our dear readers down the garden path of BP revolvers.... and even if you already know all this crap it's at least entertaining ( to me).

In the Bad Old Days, Colt's Patterson was brought out in a variety of calibers up to .36 . As a repeater it was significant, but the little .28's and .31's
were somewhat anemic, but the .36 was at least effective.

from wikipedia,
snip-------------------------
The Republic of Texas had been the major purchaser of the early Paterson Holster Pistol (No. 5 model), a five shot cal .36 revolver, and Samuel Walker became familiar with it during his service as a Texas Ranger. In 1847, Walker was engaged in the Mexican–American War as a captain in the United States Mounted Rifles. He approached Colt, requesting a large revolver to replace the single-shot Model 1842 Percussion Pistols then in use. The desired .44-.45 caliber revolver would be carried in saddle mounted holsters and would be large enough to dispatch horses as well as enemy soldiers. The Colt Walker was used in the Mexican–American War and on the Texas frontier.[1]

Medical officer John "Rip" Ford took a special interest in the Walkers when they arrived at Veracruz. He obtained two examples for himself and is the primary source for information about their performance during the war and afterward. His observation that the revolver would carry as far and strike with the same or greater force than the .54 caliber Mississippi Rifle seems to have been based on a single observation of a Mexican soldier hit at a distance of well over one hundred yards. The Walker, unlike most succeeding martial pistols and revolvers, was a practical weapon out to about 100 yards.[1]
endsnip-------------

Colt had already gone bankrupt the first time when Walker approached him to build what became the Colt Walker .44 Horse pistol weighing in at 4 1⁄2 pounds.
Thus, Colt contracted with Eli Whitney, Jr. at Whitneyville, Connecticut to manufacture these pistols.

With the soft .454 cal RB on top of 60 gr of "the best sporting powder" the Walker was effective out to 100 yards or more, and readily dropped both men and horses.
It was also supplied with a conical bullet, and it may be that using the concial in the iron cylinders led to the walker cylinders blowing up.

The next step was to reduce the cylinder length to accomodate only 50 gr of powder (to prevent blowups) and add a latch to the lever, resulting in the Colt Dragoon.

Even with the shorter barrel and cylinder the Dragoon weighs in at 4 pounds and a few ounces, so all-day belt carry for normal humans is less than comfortable.
As a result the smaller Colt Navy in .36 was brought out and was a hiugh success - but oddly not as succesful (in numbers bought by civialians) as the .31 cal Baby Dragoon. It was not until Colt was able to procure sufficient quantities of the new so-called "Swedish Spring Steel" , produced by the Bessemer process, that he
was able to create the 1860 .44 cal on the same frame as the .36, but with a rebated cylinder. The Swedish steel was far superior to the previously used
"Marshall Iron" that was imported from England and allowed for a stronger, lighter .44 belt revolver. The 1860  holds 30-35 grains of BP , and with a suitable conical can replicate the .45 ACP. Interestingly, due to the nature of BP combustion, by using cartridges with a firm crimp, one gets better performance.

Later, Remington came out with the .46 rimfire cartridge conversion for their Remington New Model Army ( usually referred to as the Model 1858) and later
some wacky fellers over in europe made even larger bore revolvers. Those zany Brits seemed to want .50 and .60 cal revolvers to take tiger hunting I suppose...

So basically, the pattern was established by trial and error - Bigger is Better, and soft Lead was the King except for Dinosaur hunting when penetration mattered more.

But since we are generally playing cowboy games rather than relying upon our sidearms to defend against Mauraiding Maoriau Attacking Morros or Grizzlies,
it is more a topic for discussion than a serious decision.

hope this helps
prof marvel

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello SPJ,

When I started loading my 44 Colt Original, I loaded 2F Goex with no space between powder & bullet.
Then when I switched to Black MX, I used the same volume of powder, but later learned there was no need.
With information from other shooters on this forum, I have dropped my charge to 20 gr. weight not volume.
I also place a piece of Biodegradable Packaging Peanut under my 200 gr. bullet, just to be safe (some say not necessary).
I find no need to have a full powered cartridge to put holes into a piece of paper,
plus I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Major 2]

Within this thread some good information is offered ..

However, there WAS  some very poor suggestions within 

Cas City is viewed by some that might attempt the poor advise , they do so at their own peril and liability 

This Moderator is inclined to delete the post(s)  I will merely Edit (it is not meant to censor)

It is to avoid  a perceive a bruhaha....

 
Thread is unlocked 

[SPJ]

Within this thread some good information is offered ..

However, there WAS  some very poor suggestions within 

Cas City is viewed by some that might attempt the poor advise , they do so at their own peril and liability 

This Moderator is inclined to delete the post(s)  I will merely Edit (it is not meant to censor)

It is to avoid  a perceive a bruhaha....

 
Thread is unlocked 

Thank you, I would not have taken such advice anyways since I know it might damage the gun if not the user too.

Taking into consideration what the others have said on putting a greater focus on bullet mass and diameter, I think then to attain my idea of a more lethal BP 38 load limited to 19th century technology, I will have to go rely on a bullet design like that of the "FBI Load" of a 158 gr soft lead HP. HPs did exist in the 1800s and wear refereed to as either "Express", "Dum dum", or "Exploding" bullets by different sources. If these sources I have found are reliable http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/477347-38-special-back-day.html https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132938 https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/top-short-barrel-38-spl-loads-for-the-street/77810 then a 38 BP load should be able to attain the velocity of roughly 800 fps needed to expand a Lead HP out of the 7.5 inch barrel of a Colt Navy. That would require me to sleave the barrel of the Colt to .357 though, since the bullet would "tumble" within the barrel otherwise, and I don't think you can make a soft lead bullet in with both a hollow point and hollow base in .38 caliber that would perform well. I am not sure if this is the right forum to continue discussing a project like this further though. So I will take this over to castboolits.com. Thank you all