1989 EMF A.S.M. Hartford CT Model

[Enfield1576]

Howdy everyone.  Jerry in Wisconsin.  Wanted to stop in and get some input on a revolver I just picked up.

It's a 1989 made per letter code. A.S.M. made Hartford Ct. Model 1873 Cavalry.

Bought from original owner who said he never fired it. Bought it because it was a clone of a gen 1 1873.

I'm curious if there is truth in this and if so will parts interchange for the most part. And curious on what you guys think about these early A.S.M. guns.

Should I just set it aside and preserve it or just shoot it. From reading some are looking for these and others say pass on them. Too me it's a very nicely done example of an 1873 black powder frame 1873.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Enfield1576]

More pics

[Abilene]

Howdy Enfield.  I don't have much experience with the older ASM guns but have heard at various times that they were very good.  Their Quality went to heck towards the end of the '90's.  I would say by all means shoot it, it will never have any collector value.

I don't know what parts might fit (Colt / Uberti / Pietta), but there is usually some fitting involved anyway.  Bolts and hands might be hard to find, but with a new gun you are not too likely to be wearing those out any time soon, if at all.  Hand and trigger/bolt springs are the most likely to fail, and those are fairly universal.

[sack peterson]

ASM's spectacular blow up over 2000-04 is when most of their bad guns hit the market.  There are some dogs from before that, but those 90's EMF Hartford's were generally pretty good.

It is dimensionally a Colt gen 1/2 blueprint gun.  You can put Colt parts on an ASM.  I think the word "interchange" suggests they'll drop in and work, which is not totally reliably the case.  But yes, all the little things that could break... trigger, cylinder bolt, sear spring, hand, main spring.... you can get Colt parts to work pretty easy.

[Dave T]

Shoot it, preferably with black powder. (smile)

Dave

[Enfield1576]

Most definately with black powder.

[Kent Shootwell]

I had a pair of Hartford models and used them for years at cowboy matches. Never had a single problem of any kind. When I showed them to Mike V. He asked if I had tuned them. No, they are straight out of the box. My friend has them now and they still run like new.

[willy]

I have the exact same gun with two changes,,Strip grips and now have hand rubbed oil finish..Replaced barrel with Colt SAA barrel with the "COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY 45 " polished off and reblued ..I call it my SAA,, As in  Single action Armi,, It just seems to feel better in my hand with the Colt address on top of the barrel.

[Coffinmaker]

The early on ASM Replicants were very well made and are/were the closest replicas of the Colt available at that time.

Today, the closest replicant is the Pietta GWII.  Lots and lots of parts can be fit.  Drop in??  Not so much but that is quite normal.  Some fitting required.

[Tascosa Joe]

I had a pair way back until my oldest son did some creative reloading, but that was not the pistols fault.  I put ASM cylinders in both of my 1st Gen 1880's Colts.  The cylinders took some tuning to get the timing right but they "fit".

[Niederlander]

I've been shooting one for years.  I've replaced the barrel, hammer, trigger, bolt, trigger, and springs, all with Colt parts.  Yes, they took some fitting, just as they do in Colts.

[The original bad bob]

 Hi, here is my 2cents.. both  Armi San Marco and uberti made Hartford models For emf .. The uberti has a slightly larger cylinder and frame cylinder window than a Colt .. by approx 20 thousandths of an inch.
I own a dozen Armi San Marco Hartford models , a few uberti Cimarron old models and a few early first gen Colt SAA's from the 1870's to late 1880's... here is what I have discovered about parts interchangeability between them... Original Colt hammers fit the ASM pistols however if the Colt hammers have the black powder cone shaped firing pins then the firing pin holes in ASM frame has to be enlarged to work.

Original Colt cylinders won't fit the ASM guns without filing down the Colt cylinder ratchet or removing material from ASM frame cylinder ratchet pocket.

Colt base pins are a few thousands too large to fit the ASM guns and the black powder base pin screw engagement geometry is different.. a colt base pin can be made to work it just requires sanding down on a lathe or in a drill press and the retention notch needs to be ground larger so the ASM base pin screw will seat properly with frame.

Colt Back strap and trigger guards will screw into ASM frames but they don't fit properly.. the ASM frames are approx 30 thousands of an inch longer and wider than Colt frames so Colt trigger guards will sit back from edges of ASM frames requiring sanding of ASM frames to make them fit properly.

You can't put a first gen Colt cone shaped firing pin in ASM hammers because the retaining pin hole in ASM hammers is in the wrong location to engage the Colt firing pin -pin recess ... also the ASM hammer notches are machined slightly different higher than a colt hammer notches often resulting in having to manipulate the cylinder on half cock to eject the spent cartridges so they don't hit the frame.

Colt first and second generation barrels will fit ASM frames, so will Colt 3rd gen barrels but a gunsmith will have to change thread geometry.
Colt saa bolts, hands, main spring, bolt trigger spring and screws will fit the ASM guns with varying degrees of modification... the ASM trigger guard and back strap screws for example will have to have their heads sanded down to fit the recessed screw pockets of Colt back strap and trigger guards.

Some ASM pistols have a threaded bushing stud brazed into the barrel to retain ejector housing, some just have a hole threaded into barrel to retain ejector housing.. I have had one of the brazed in studs come loose in one of my ASM emf revolvers resulting in me having to purchase a colt stud and peen it or crimp it in the asm barrel to prevent the ejector rod unit flying off during shooting.

I enjoy working on ASM guns to make them as close to original early colts as possible... i shoot the heck out of them and do not have to worry about damaging a historic old west piece..I usually put a real black powder colt hammer with cone shape firing pin in them, Colt trigger, I take the ASM cylinders and give them a heavy black powder bevel job , change the profile of ASM front sight to make them like early Colt, and sometimes replace the ASM bolt with a colt to time them correctly and either place the ASM base pin in a mini lathe and dimple the front or replace it with a peacemaker specialist dimpled Colt replica base pin .

The ASM and uberti clones shoot better than my original 19th century colts... the old colts have noticeably higher and thinner rifling in bore probably to counter black powder fouling in repeated firing.

ASM parts vary considerably in dimensions and it appears they used sub contractors to make parts for them during their production runs because parts like their base pins, trigger guards and cylinders  and screws vary considerably in the machining style and
finish , some of the screws and base pins of different vintage ASM guns appear to have been parkerized instead of blued... the screws and hammers  also vary in hardness.. some being very soft... I have encountered more than a few ASM guns with broken hammer notches or with broken bolt legs due to these parts being too soft.

Just my 2cents

Here is a photo of one of my modified ASM pistols.. I put a real 1880's colt hammer in it, beveled the cylinder , put a Colt trigger and bolt in it... I'm probably going to change the profile of the front sight next to match Colt as the ASM guns have very tall front sights from factory and usually shoot low because of this.

[LonesomePigeon]

bad bob, great post. Very informative.

[Texas John Ringo]

I had 3 EMF Hartford (ASM) Model SA's in .45 Colt at one time and have long since traded them off. All 3 had Bob Munden action jobs. I also had and still do 3 early 3rd Colt SAA's. One had a Munden action job and the other 2 had action jobs by Lee in Arizona. Short story all 3 ASM .45 cylinders would fit the Colt's all the Colt cylinders would fit the Hartford models AND ALL were in time in any revolver, amazing so. And my step son broke 1 of the Hartford models hammer half cock notch and I bought a Colt hammer and fitted it to the Hartford, minor work required. This was about 1994/5ish.

[Niederlander]

I've got a 4 digit ASM Hartford Model cavalry pistol.  It now has a Colt barrel, Colt hammer (cone firing pin), Colt bolt, hand, trigger, and main spring.  It's pretty much an Armi San Colt at this point.  Shoots great! 

By the way, I put a Peacemaker Specialists dimpled base pin in mine and it fit perfectly.  I get the impression the ASM's tended to be all over the map with parts fit.  I replaced the barrel on mine because the front sight slot was milled into the bore.  Wondered why the front sight kept coming off!

[Coffinmaker]

  The Good.  The Bad.  The Ugly 

The Good:  If ever there was a replica of the Colt SAA that could be honestly called a "CLONE" it was the Armi San Marco.  Pretty much exact.

The Bad:  The ASM was quite spotty on function.  Fit was not an exact science for ASM but the guns looked the biz from the FreeWay.

The Ugly:  If you had a problem (most likely), ASM parts usually didn't fit ASM guns.  I never figured out "what" ASM parts actually fit.  ASM quality control was NON EXISTENT.  A real shame as the ASM Richards Conversion replicant was gorgeous.  Just didn't work (most of the time).

Play Safe Out There

[russ1943]

Hi, here is my 2cents.. both  Armi San Marco and uberti made Hartford models For emf .. The uberti has a slightly larger cylinder and frame cylinder window than a Colt .. by approx 20 thousandths of an inch.
I own a dozen Armi San Marco Hartford models , a few uberti Cimarron old models and a few early first gen Colt SAA's from the 1870's to late 1880's... here is what I have discovered about parts interchangeability between them... Original Colt hammers fit the ASM pistols however if the Colt hammers have the black powder cone shaped firing pins then the firing pin holes in ASM frame has to be enlarged to work.

Original Colt cylinders won't fit the ASM guns without filing down the Colt cylinder ratchet or removing material from ASM frame cylinder ratchet pocket.

Colt base pins are a few thousands too large to fit the ASM guns and the black powder base pin screw engagement geometry is different.. a colt base pin can be made to work it just requires sanding down on a lathe or in a drill press and the retention notch needs to be ground larger so the ASM base pin screw will seat properly with frame.

Colt Back strap and trigger guards will screw into ASM frames but they don't fit properly.. the ASM frames are approx 30 thousands of an inch longer and wider than Colt frames so Colt trigger guards will sit back from edges of ASM frames requiring sanding of ASM frames to make them fit properly.

You can't put a first gen Colt cone shaped firing pin in ASM hammers because the retaining pin hole in ASM hammers is in the wrong location to engage the Colt firing pin -pin recess ... also the ASM hammer notches are machined slightly different higher than a colt hammer notches often resulting in having to manipulate the cylinder on half cock to eject the spent cartridges so they don't hit the frame.

Colt first and second generation barrels will fit ASM frames, so will Colt 3rd gen barrels but a gunsmith will have to change thread geometry.
Colt saa bolts, hands, main spring, bolt trigger spring and screws will fit the ASM guns with varying degrees of modification... the ASM trigger guard and back strap screws for example will have to have their heads sanded down to fit the recessed screw pockets of Colt back strap and trigger guards.

Some ASM pistols have a threaded bushing stud brazed into the barrel to retain ejector housing, some just have a hole threaded into barrel to retain ejector housing.. I have had one of the brazed in studs come loose in one of my ASM emf revolvers resulting in me having to purchase a colt stud and peen it or crimp it in the asm barrel to prevent the ejector rod unit flying off during shooting.

I enjoy working on ASM guns to make them as close to original early colts as possible... i shoot the heck out of them and do not have to worry about damaging a historic old west piece..I usually put a real black powder colt hammer with cone shape firing pin in them, Colt trigger, I take the ASM cylinders and give them a heavy black powder bevel job , change the profile of ASM front sight to make them like early Colt, and sometimes replace the ASM bolt with a colt to time them correctly and either place the ASM base pin in a mini lathe and dimple the front or replace it with a peacemaker specialist dimpled Colt replica base pin .

The ASM and uberti clones shoot better than my original 19th century colts... the old colts have noticeably higher and thinner rifling in bore probably to counter black powder fouling in repeated firing.

ASM parts vary considerably in dimensions and it appears they used sub contractors to make parts for them during their production runs because parts like their base pins, trigger guards and cylinders  and screws vary considerably in the machining style and
finish , some of the screws and base pins of different vintage ASM guns appear to have been parkerized instead of blued... the screws and hammers  also vary in hardness.. some being very soft... I have encountered more than a few ASM guns with broken hammer notches or with broken bolt legs due to these parts being too soft.

Just my 2cents

Here is a photo of one of my modified ASM pistols.. I put a real 1880's colt hammer in it, beveled the cylinder , put a Colt trigger and bolt in it... I'm probably going to change the profile of the front sight next to match Colt as the ASM guns have very tall front sights from factory and usually shoot low because of this.

I had four shot 3, had some problems, now took out the first one, got in 89, never shot it is 44-40, 5.5" practiced with snap caps since I just a cataract surgery and the length is just right. notice that it was locking in the fired position had to really pull on the hammer, took it a part and the trigger bolt is bent. That is new one for the ASM.

Orders all the screws, since they seemed soft, heads easily got bugged up, through Cimarron their Pietta 1873 model most all fi, except the trigger and the bolt screw, the threads are longer, and different. Called VTI 2 weeks still no return phone call. Does anyone know who carries them.

There was an EMF Gunsmith, Dave who handle the breakage on both of the ASM 4.75's, one was really bad everything apart after 5 rounds. He also found me a trigger for my EMF 1959 GW, Colts didn't fit, hole as in the wrong place, that had over 2000 rounds of 44's before it broke. I lost his number, does any one have that?

I post the pictures of ASM once I get this one back together.

Thanks

[The original bad bob]

Russ1943... Any gunsmith that is familiar with the saa should be able to correct the problems you are experiencing.

I would humbly recommend Bob James of Phoenix Arizona.. He has worked on several of my ASM Hartford models and I never encountered a problem he could not easily handle.

[russ1943]

Do you have his Phone # or email you could PM  me?

Thanks
RJS

[The original bad bob]

Bobs shop number:

602-540-0682