IMR 4227 for 44-40 wcf pistol loads

[brudford]

 Back when I was shooting my CPA 32-40 rifle and breech seating lead bullets I used alot of IMR 4227 . I think this powder was designed for rifle pistol cartridges , .38 wcf .32 wcf , 38-40 wcf and the 44-40 wcf . I still have over 6 lbs left . All the load data I see is for lever rifles, and some large powder charges 24-27 grs at about 1900 fps . I have a Uberti 1875 Outlaw in 44-40 any loads for this pistol ? Or not safe to use ? Thanks

[Abilene]

Considering the manufacturer describes the powder as such:
"IMR 4227 is a medium burn speed, magnum pistol propellant. If a pistol says Magnum, IMR 4227 is the choice for true magnum velocities and performance."
I would say it is definitely not for Cowboy loads.

[wildman1]

I've had problems gettin a complete burn using 4227 in a 41 mag. I had a good tight crimp etc., still left quite a bit of unburned powder in the bbl.
wM1

[brudford]

Thanks for the replies , Just a generic load I can use for my Uberti 1875 Outlaw . My research showed me that IMR 4227 was developed for the above calibers mentioned as well as the 44-40 wcf . They called them pistol / rifle rounds . I'am assuming for the lever action rifles , generally about 18.0 grs of IMR 4227 . Is IMR only for theses pistol / rifle loads or can I include the loads for a pistol ? I know the members  on this forum know that the 44-40 , 38-40 ect... were all developed as rifle cartridges and later pistol manufacteurs chambered for their revolvers . Infact I even see some powder makers and die makers who list the 44-40 under pistols and we all know it is a rifle cartridge . Thanks

[Slamfire]

 You might want to try ww231, I use it in both my 72 OT 38 spl., and my 1875 outlaw ,, 44-40 , just another choice .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Dirty Dick]

I prefer 5.5grs Trail Boss or 8 grs of Unique for CAS. IMR4227 works well for hunting loads in .44-40.

[44 centerfire]

what I found about 50 years ago with IMR 4227 that it would produce a flyer now and then in my original half shot out barrel 92 Win 44-40 carbine.  Using magnum primers would help tighten groups and help for a better IMR 4227 burn. I shot an original Lyman 42798 mold at 217 grain lead using the mag primers.

Back then my go to carbine powders were H-110, IMR 4227, and Hercules 2400 using standard primers.  H-110 would produce a little more velocity according to my Lyman 45th edition. Used a lot of H-110, but settled on storing mostly 2400 to also use in my 335,xxx 7 1/2 inch Colt frontier six shooter.

Having used 4227 in my 7 1/2 inch Colt left some un-burned powder even with the magnum primers. My thoughts were that slow burning 4227 was for longer than revolver barrels for the better burn.  H-110 was also more suited for longer that revolver barrels in my opinion. I think a new powder took over H-110 that looks and burns like it with a new name....can't remember what it's called now.

So, I settled on the more popular 2400.....but would not use 2400 in shorter revolver barrels......Hercules Unique and Bullseye for short revolver barrels AND long carbine barrels. Ya, I know 630P....a discontinued powder was very good. Now days I have used 20-28 for revolvers...800X..and so on....lot's of options these days.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.......44centerfire

[Ranch 13]

As long as the data you plan to use is for saami spec pressures, it matters little whether the round goes in a rifle or a handgun. The high velocity shown for rifles is due to the lack of a cylinder gap and the longer barrel.
I never did get the accuracy from 4227 in handgun and wcf cartridges as other powders would give.

[Trailrider]

IMHO, IMR4227 is a bit slow-burning for SASS-level .44-40 loads, as is 2400.  Unique works well, as does W231/HP38.  Bullseye will also do, although proper loads will really slop around in the big case. Regardless, get a good neck tension and a firm roll crimp on the bullet.
I have used Hodgdon's Universal in .44-40 for years now. 8.0 gr. behind a 213.5 gr hardcast (BHN 17-22) gives about 950 ft/sec from a 7-1/2" OM Vaquero that has tight throats.  Gives about 1080 ft/sec from a 20-inch Rossi and 1130 ft/sec from a 24" Navy Arms M1860 Henry.  [Disclaimer:  Not responsible for the use of this data in guns other than my own!]

[bear tooth billy]

Remember, these calibers were developed for black powder. I tell
people to never, ever load anything that is not in a reputable reloading
manual. No offense to any suggestions here, but us average reloaders
do not have the pressure testing equipment. Had a local guy blow up a Sharps
using smokeless, and losing 3 fingers.  Safety first.

                        BTB

[Ranch 13]

 The Lyman 48th reloading handbook has pressure tested data for the 44-40 using 4227, as do some of the older versions I have dating back to the 1930's.
A subscription to Loaddata.com may prove to be quite helpful in your quest to use up that powder supply you have on hand.

[Bryan Austin]

IMR-4227 was a direct replacement for IMR 1204 from 1925. Unique and Bullseye have been around since 1900, both are fast burning pistol powders. IMR4227 is a mid-range rifle powder that did well in the magnums. SInce then they adopted the term Magnum powders. Those powders were around long before the Magnums.

Lyman lists 4227 loads for use in revolvers.

Back in the 1930's, the 44-40 was still called, loaded as, and remained a rifle caliber using rifle powders. Sharpe even wrote in his manual;

Sharp once wrote in his 1937 hand-loading manual...

"The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success. As in all other dual-purpose cartridges, the factory loads are only a compromise at best. Smokeless-powder loading for handguns requires a much more rapid-burning type than loading for rifle use, as the short barrel must burn all the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. In addition, rifle cartridges can be loaded to a pressure of about 30,000 pounds in this caliber, whereas the same load in a revolver would be more or less disastrous."

Thus the reason for modern mediocre factory loads using pistol powders in rifles.

Today it is just the opposite, where folks have lost the early 44-40  "rifle" knowledge and try to load rifles with pistol powders.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

[Drydock]

Tangents everywhere.  However, to answer the question of simply wanting to burn up his extra powder in his revolver, there is virtually no .44-40 data out there for what YOU want to do.   If you have no other application suited for it, best sell it and get something else.

[Bryan Austin]

I think this powder was designed for rifle pistol cartridges , ........and the 44-40 wcf . I still have over 6 lbs left . All the load data I see is for lever rifles, and some large powder charges 24-27 grs at about 1900 fps . I have a Uberti 1875 Outlaw in 44-40 any loads for this pistol ? Or not safe to use ? Thanks

Tangents everywhere.  However, to answer the question of simply wanting to burn up his extra powder in his revolver, there is virtually no .44-40 data out there for what YOU want to do.   If you have no other application suited for it, best sell it and get something else.

Like I said, Lyman lists 4227 data for the revolvers.

Lyman 49th page 369 is for revolver use.
.429"

Lyman 427098
12.5gr to start, 15.8gr max
15.8gr 915fps @ 12,000cup

200gr Speer JHP #4425
16.1gr to start, 17.9gr max
17.9gr 879fps @ 12,300cup

Lyman 427666
15gr to start, 17gr max
17gr 984fps @ 12,600cup

SAAMI Max =13,000cup/11,000psi

My Test Results 20" barrel
17gr, 205gr Lyman 427098, 9,389psi
18.5gr, Winchester 200gr JSP, 9,205psi
20.5gr, Winchester 200gr JSP, 12,200psi Orange (Yellow is hard to see)
25gr, Magma 200gr lead, 17,915psi

I am not recommending loads that result in pressures above 11,000psi and they are for Group II strong action rifles only. Lyman explains what group two rifles are.