Kevin Tinny - Part 4: Fletcher-Bidwell. LLC

[Two Flints]

Fletcher-Bidwell, LLC:

Dr. Jeffrey M. Menn, MD, a principal IN the Fletcher-Bidwell enterprise, indicated to me 27 FEB 2020 and 28 FEB 2020, AFTER further discussions with Dr. Piper:

The "Fletcher-Bidwell" NAME is a combination of two of the owners' mother's maiden names and there is NO individual person with that name, even though there IS an FFL in that name.

The origins of the venture were simply that Dr. Piper liked Spencers and since no one was making them, he began the project.  The group and his partners did NO OTHER guns.

They learned of Ken Howell, who others indicated had been assembling '86 Winchesters from original parts.

Dr. Menn shared that Ken modified original Spencer parts and the feeding system FOR 44 cartridges, but it did not function until later changes.

He said the ONLY gun THEY saw from HOWELL appeared to be an ORIGINAL that had been partially modified to 44-40.

After they parted company with Howell, the Fletcher-Bidwell group did NOT use him for ANY work.

F-B found a machinist, who's name he could not recall, in Milwaukee that completed approximately 30 carbines that were finished with Turnbull color-case for ALL OF THOSE that placed pre-production orders AND sent the balance of the price. The machinist used ORIGINAL parts from a "sporter" of Dr. Menn's, as the basis for investment casting masters that were scaled-up to offset both mold and metal shrinkage so that the finished castings, AFTER machining, were of the correct dimensions.  The stock blanks came from Iowa.  This work caused the machinist to go bankrupt. Dr. Menn thought the fellow is deceased. 

The serial numbers on them began with "1".

Their tooling, investment casting moulds and parts, plus a lot of "German" barrels in 50, 44 and 45 calibers are still with the F-B group and are for sale. 

Dr. Menn WAS CERTAIN THAT ALL METAL PARTS, INCLUDING THE RECEIVER except for the German barrels, IN ALL THE DELIVERED F-B's, WERE MACHINED FROM CASTINGS. 

He said that Dr. Piper has all the records, including correspondence with all the purchasers.

He will look for a receiver casting and if available, will get one to me for examination and measurement. 
He invited me to visit and inspect, review and handle whatever they still had.

He said there is ONE F-B carbine that might be available.  He could not recall its serial number.  It is unfired and in a display box with the family of its deceased owner.  He was a cousin of one of the principals, also the banker for the enterprise.  He died ten years ago. 

Dr. Menn was not familiar with cartouches and could not share information about the initials that were in them. 

He said ALL the F-B's had the correct, long blade extractor, not the Lane version that was in Howell's.
Note that the Fletcher-Bidwell Owner's Manual depicts a LANE extractor.

An AUG2019 INTERNET search showed the registered owner of the name, "Spencer Rifle Company", as Fletcher Bidwell (no hyphen).  Maybe a typo.
F-B's are marked: "Fletcher-Bidwell, LLC".  "SPENCER" DOES NOT APPEAR ON F-B'S. 
F-B BARRELS ARE MARKED "56-50 CF, Fletcher-Bidwell Viroqua, WI".

ONE F-B may have been N-SSA "individually" approved.  The owner of #28 said his WAS but does not have the N-SSA "SAC" approval card that should have been with it when it was returned to him by the credible skirmisher that took it FOR approval.     

04APR19: David Stavlo at Lodgewood told me:
His shop is near Ken's and he works on things with him.   
Ken told him that AFTER the first batch of Armisport/Chiappa Spencer carbines appeared in 44 Russian with double blade extractors and Stabler cutoffs, Taylors & Co took him to Italy to debug them because
the extractors broke and some rear sights had fallen off. 
David had NO idea who "Fletcher Bidwell" is. 
He was told the first venture was: Piper (the "vet"), Menn (an MD) and Howell, using the Spencer name. 

21FEB20, Bill Osborne, now retired in Greenville, TN shared:
Bill still shoots at Winchester with the N-SSA.  He said that he had NO direct contact with any aspect of the Fletcher-Bidwell venture and that ALL he knows came from Kenny Howell.  Bill said he never heard of Fletcher Bidwell and that Kenny always referred to the F-B, LLC venture as "the doctor". Bill said he has NO idea who the machinist was or how many were made. 
Kenny told him the Fletcher-Bidwell Spencers had cartridge feeding issues.

As of 28JAN2020, it seems that others have helped locate or have heard of at least SIX Fletcher-Bidwell's. 
One of the five could be the same one that surfaced at different times via Internet sales. 

First, as posted by "BUCK" on CAS/SSS Forum, was the one he bought from a family member, with NO serial number provided and he sold it via Gunbroker in 2007.  BUCK lived in NEW JERSEY.  "Buck's" photo on CAS/SSS seems to show that he is NOT the "Amer-Asian" living in NJ that Romano indicated also had a F-B.
29APR07, Two Flints posted a F-B for sale on Gunbroker, being sold by "BUCK", contact info unknown as of Apr 19.  Buck indicated it was in 56-50 caliber, had a Lothar Walther barrel and Turnbull color-case.  Buck got it from a "relative of one of the owners".  No serial number was indicated and GunBroker will not provide ANY information.  Buck also posted that the F-B tooling was advertised for sale in 2007.

Second, is DIXIE Gun Works' #22, purchased directly from F-B on 26 June 2002 for $1800 and listed in its Antique Arms Catalog on page 125 for $2,450.  It sold THREE years later for $2,350 to a fellow in Bremen, GA, who died in 2016.  We are grateful to Jamey Andrews of Dixie Gun Works for his help on tracing this important historical item. Its present location is unknown. 

Third was delivered to "Geo" in MD around June 11, 2002, SIX YEARS after his deposit in Dec 1996.  Geo's is MARKED #28.  His was delivered about two weeks SOONER than #22.  Geo told me that HIS WAS TAKEN TO SAC by a credible friend, and "INDIVIDUALLY" approved and returned to him WITHOUT A SAC CARD.  He is CERTAIN that it NOW functions well with no odd cycling technique, but in an SSS post, commented that it DID NOT cycle from the magazine when delivered and the half-cock failed to hold shortly after delivery. Geo posted that a gunsmith repaired the "broken" half cock AND removed obstructions in the feeding passageway that were catching the forward rim edge of the 56-50 case.

Geo said he knew of only of HIS F-B and perhaps the Gunbroker F-B. Geo believes F-B NEVER made a rifle, and never heard of the "junker" rifle sent to an N-SSA member for evaluation.  Geo said an extensive correspondence file including a letter showing SERIAL NUMBER 43 on his deposit receipt letter of 04DEC96 from Spencer Repeating Arms.  When (non-FFL) delivered in June 2002, it was #28! 

05DEC19, Geo emailed me with the carefully taken dimensions of HIS F-B #28 receiver:
(To avoid predisposition, I did NOT share what the dimensions should be, if matching an original).

Thickness of #28 F-B receiver across the receiver-barrel is 1.22".
Height of receiver from TOP flat to BOTTOM of receiver just behind barrel and forend is 2.12".
Height of receiver at loading lever hinge is 3.3".
These are a MATCH with both ORIGINAL 1860's and each of seven Romano rifles/carbines.

These dimensions show that the receiver on F-B #28 is full-sized.

Geo added:
The extractor on his #28 is the SINGLE, vertical large blade type on the left side of the block.
This matches Dr. Menn's comments to me.
And that the initials in the two cartouches are almost indiscernible, possibly "DBG" in the horizontal one and "G??" in the vertical one.

Fourth, per Romano, was bought directly from F-B by an "Amer-Asian" reenactor then in NJ, that also ordered one of his Spencers.  In January 2020, Larry shared that the NJ fellow had called about some PISTOL work so he will try to get more details about the F-B.  This person showed Romano a SINGLE page of instructions he received with his F-B that indicated the carbine HAD to be pointed downward and twisted to the LEFT for cycling.

Fifth, as reported on CAS/SSS by "Spencer Sporter" in a Mar 22, 2008 Thread "3 Spencer Salad" in which he posted a picture of his Romano, Fletcher-Bidwell and Armisport.  No serial number is known. JKT PM'd him
on 26 Jan 2020.  No answer to the PM and Two Flints' email was returned for inoperative address.  The THREAD includes a PHOTO of all THREE and the F-B has a VISIBLY (odd) larger lever and about double the trigger clearance of the Romano and original Sporter.

Sixth, is the one in the hands of the family of F-B's deceased banker.  It has been in a display case unfired for years. 

Larry Romano told me that after the F-B venture closed, HE was called by someone offering to sell him the tooling, investment casting masters and parts.  Larry said he was only interested in ORIGINAL Spencer parts for restorations and repairs and was told there were none.

The especially well prepared, 28-page F-B "Operator's Manual" is too large to include here.  Aside from all the usual safety and quite helpful functioning information, there are two interesting sections.  One is its DIAGRAM of parts that shows a screw-in firing pin bushing in the FACE of the upper block and the other section is three pages of RELOADING information, even though ONLY COMMERCIAL AMMUNITION "should be used".  (Didn't say "MUST").  The Manual depicts a LANE extractor, but ALL delivered F-B's have ONLY the single, long blade extractor, per Dr. Menn.

If anyone HAS a Fletcher-Bidwell carbine, it should have been accompanied by this Manual. 
If they wish a copy, please send me clear, close-up photo's of their carbine and I will email a series of images of the Manual pages that were so thoughtfully and painstakingly provided by "GEO".   

The names on letters, including the 04DEC96 "Spencer Repeating Arms" Deposit Letter signed by D. Piper are:
Ken Howell, Director of Operations.  Ken is retired.
Dr. Jeffrey F. Menn, MD - Marketing. MD partner at a clinic in Viroqua, retired in 2014 and is "ranching".
Dane G. Piper, Product Development. (a practicing veterinarian in Viroqua). Wishes NOT to be contacted.
Robert Krambs, Corporate Attorney. (the former District Attorney in Viroqua).  He passed in Nevada in 2016.

A CAS/SSS post implies that the FIRST F-B machinist left F-B and tried to get a German company to make the Spencer.  I have not found anyone, including Dr. Menn, with awareness of this aspect.  Perhaps Ken's trip to Italy to debug the Armisport Spencer was what happened. 

The following Fletcher-Bidwell carbine features are not original to the 1860 Spencer:

Lettering on the BARREL.
FLARED rear forend adjacent to the receiver.
56-50 bore and center-fire cartridge.
A large FRONT sight BASE that is wider and higher than originals. 
The left, rear of the buttstock just behind the sling bar has two cartouches deeply stamped in the wood. 
Wood next to the lock plate shows rounding "down" to intersect the plate edges, NOT an even radius from the top of the stock wrist making the wood to metal fit less close than on originals. 

A SEARCH of the CAS/SSS Forum or the INTERNET for "Fletcher'Bidwell" will bring up clear photos of a F-B on GunBroker in late April 2007.  These are the ONLY clear available photos of ANY F-B and show the forend at the receiver, the front sight, two deep cartouches and the rounded, less close wood fitting.

[Dave Fox]

Though in no way interested in replica Spencers, only in originals, this information is encyclopedic and mesmerizing. I had no idea how thin on the ground replicas are. My hat's off to those with machining skills for undertaking copying these rather complex mechanisms. Am reminded, and not in a derogatory way, of the hand-made copies of Colt 1911s and Mauser broomhandles from Asia. One can only presume availability of comparatively cheap shootable, centerfire breechblocks and the handicap Spencers are in N-SSA and CAS  competition make replicas potentially more collectible than originals!

[Major 2]

My recollection on Fletcher Bidwell LLC. was from my experience having ordered two carbines.
I was the Armorer in pre-production for a film,  the script called for a Spencer.
I contacted & placed the order by phone and sent a certified check ( Production budget ) as I recall @ $1800 with the balance
prior to shipping.
The film start date was 11 months out at the time, however as the date loomed closer we had no guns.
The F-B LLc. was contacted and no date could be guaranteed , a refund was applied. I still have the original paper work.

At the time I had two original 1860's both fitted with S&S Firearms upper centerfire blocks, one had been polished by a gunsmith by the name of Mr. Yager in Miami... this gun was case colored and used. the other S# 21XXX was left in its patina.
These became the prop guns...both I had used before in "The Blue & the Gray Mini Series"  "North & South II , and believe it or not an episode of "Miami Vice"  .
   

[Blair]

Major 2,

What was the DATE on that original paper work when ordering the Fletcher Bidwell?
This may help add to some of the info posted.
Many thanks...
My best,
Blair