73' QUIZE ! TIME

[dusty texian]

Thanks for the clarity on the statement.

As for Pirkles book. When I had a new barrel made for my 76, I know from the Cody letter it had a 1/2 magazine. I listed as a needed feature of the new barrel the small groove for the magazine cap just beyond the forearm cap. I was told that is incorrect, that they were button magazines and captured by the forearm. I pointed out that this is not what Pirkle stated. I then called Mike Hunter who was doing other work on the 1876 50-95, and he confirmed the error in the book. I called another well known author and restoration guru Mike suggested and he pointed out the same error. No notch was to be made. That maybe on a rare 5 round magazine, which would require the magazine to extend beyond the forearm cap would a notch be made. The full magazine had the notch, but not button.

The sights he mentions are not that accurate. They do exist, but he did not account for the express semi-buckhorn, and other variations.

On my copy, some of his screw references are incorrect, thread and size.

But these are to be expected I think. Even Houze, who had unprecedented access to Winchester records is missing data. My rifle and one I know of are not mentioned in his book on factory modified 50-95's. My Cody letter states it was changed, and the other I know of states it was changed, but Houze did not record them in his otherwise detailed accounts in his numbers. His age for 50-95 ammunition differed from the Shulyer accounting and research.

These are great books, but like all, give us a basis to go from, but are not definitive or gospel. Not that people take them as such, but just because the book does not mention it, just means it may not have crossed that authors path. Since these rifles were subject to special orders, anything is possible.

I think I saw a 44-40 1873 sold at a major auction house. It was in a 32/38 style receiver. Don't recall the facts with clarity, but something to the effect it was factory made this way.

The NRA tweeted a picture of a left hand load, 1876 with late SN, but early 1876 run parts, attributed to General Sheridan. It was a customized and oddity of parts, purportedly made just for the General for his Buffalo hunts. But Houze does not seem to mention such a gun. He devotes a bit of ink to a special order by Custer  for a friend. Why? Did it escape his research? Don't know. Point is, I've learned that the two books are good, but not definitive. That's all I'm saying. If the book is silent on it, keep looking for another source, if it has data in your subject, trust by verify.

It's not a rebuke of any of these fine authors. I wish I knew  20% of what these learned individuals understood. Just my insight.

I also think versions have important changes. Maybe that's why my Kindle version has some data the prints don't have.

Just my view. Again, not a rebuke of the books, just that they are not free of errors.

Some 1876 Half Magazine rifles had a true Button Mag. Plug held by the Forend Cap. and some Had the Half Mag. with the Plug with the Lip and groove under the barrel . A pic. of one with the Lip and groove . Second pic. of a Button held by the Forend Cap. I duplicated  copied from an original . ,,,DT  Sorry for getting so far off topic Slamfire .

[Slamfire]

 Everything " cool ",, me learn much,, I need to learn much ,, can't help folks if " I " don't know what i'm looking at.


  coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[JustinGr]

DT

When I ordered my 22" round 50-95 barrel with 1/2 magazine, I asked for the groove for the magazine cap. The barrel maker said it did not have such a groove, the 50-95 1/2 magazine was a button magazine unless it was ordered with a 4 or 5 round magazine. I called another Winchester restoration expert, who also confirmed this. When I mentioned Pirkles book and statement, he said the book is wrong. He then suggested another author and expert, who I called and he said the same thing. Unless a larger magazine was ordered, they were button magazines. I called Bob Knapp to get the button cap and he too stated this fact.

If all 4 are wrong, so be it. But the 50-95 according to the barrel guys and 3 well respected and knowledgeable people all stated the 50-95's had this arrangement unless capacity was changed. So that's what I went with on my original 22" 50-95.

I also just look again at the book. He states that 1/2 magazine cap lightly protruded from the forearm cap, albeit slightly. Further, when he mentions the rounded cap, he does not say it was captured by the forearm cap, but it uses a tab and screw. This is for the extended capacity 1/2 magazines, I believe. He does not even mention the button style capture method within the Forearm cap itself . So, regardless, it does not contain all options. Which is my basic point. No author or single source can be the ultimate authority. So it is places like this and people with hands on experience who will supplement the information.

And I followed your thread. You have a nice rifle.

Jg

[dusty texian]

DT

When I ordered my 22" round 50-95 barrel with 1/2 magazine, I asked for the groove for the magazine cap. The barrel maker said it did not have such a groove, the 50-95 1/2 magazine was a button magazine unless it was ordered with a 4 or 5 round magazine. I called another Winchester restoration expert, who also confirmed this. When I mentioned Pirkles book and statement, he said the book is wrong. He then suggested another author and expert, who I called and he said the same thing. Unless a larger magazine was ordered, they were button magazines. I called Bob Knapp to get the button cap and he too stated this fact.

If all 4 are wrong, so be it. But the 50-95 according to the barrel guys and 3 well respected and knowledgeable people all stated the 50-95's had this arrangement unless capacity was changed. So that's what I went with on my original 22" 50-95.

I also just look again at the book. He states that 1/2 magazine cap lightly protruded from the forearm cap, albeit slightly. Further, when he mentions the rounded cap, he does not say it was captured by the forearm cap, but it uses a tab and screw. This is for the extended capacity 1/2 magazines, I believe. He does not even mention the button style capture method within the Forearm cap itself . So, regardless, it does not contain all options. Which is my basic point. No author or single source can be the ultimate authority. So it is places like this and people with hands on experience who will supplement the information.

And I followed your thread. You have a nice rifle.

Jg

Jg  first I want to make something clear . I am not trying to prove anyone wrong  . The names you mentioned are very knowledgeable men and highly respected craftsman and I would never say anything to discredit them , matter of fact I would never bring their names into this discussion .  and if they told you that the 1876 Winchester Half Mag did not come with a rounded cap  that had a tab turned into the slot under the barrel than so be it .  All I will say is that they do exist , I will post a picture of one that is on a Deluxe 1876 Winchester 50.Cal. Half Mag . The pic. is not great but you can see the slot and cap .  Personally I do not have one in my collection  of   17 , 1876 Winchesters  may need to buy one , one of my good friend's that has really nice collection  of 1876 Winchesters has three in his collection that the Half Mag  cap / lip turns into a slot under the barrel  all have the British proof marks and are .50 Cal . And he also has Winchester 1876 Half Mag. guns that have the cap held by the Forend cap , one of these  I used for my copy . They came both ways . Personally I think I have went over this enough , draw your own conclusions decide what you think is right and enjoy your build .  Good Luck ,,,DT

[jthbjr]

Dusty, the end cap on my 1/2 mag 76 looks exactly like your photo. Mine is a 45-75 with a full octagon barrel.
John, still in the Fort in town

[JustinGr]

I'm certainly not arguing with anyone. I have no need. My point remains just because a book says something or does not exists , does not equate to a definitive answer. 

As for your photo, I am not doubting the existence of the tab method. I would question the originality of the part, the one in the photo looks as if the blue and screw are excellent and the forearm cap faded and aged. But one photo won't tell the story . Also, was it a 3 or 4 round capacity 50-95? The standard I am told is 3 in the tube. Mathematically, one round extra is about 5/8" longer than a button style, accounting for follower and spring . The magazines for 5 rounds are obviously longer.

And you're right, we need to make up our own minds as to what is proper. Mine was one of the 50's made for export, and that's how it's going back together.

Thanks for the banter. Again, for me, it's an educational discussion. I'm not here to piss in anyone's Cheerios.

jg

[dusty texian]

I'm certainly not arguing with anyone. I have no need. My point remains just because a book says something or does not exists , does not equate to a definitive answer. 

As for your photo, I am not doubting the existence of the tab method. I would question the originality of the part, the one in the photo looks as if the blue and screw are excellent and the forearm cap faded and aged. But one photo won't tell the story . Also, was it a 3 or 4 round capacity 50-95? The standard I am told is 3 in the tube. Mathematically, one round extra is about 5/8" longer than a button style, accounting for follower and spring . The magazines for 5 rounds are obviously longer.

And you're right, we need to make up our own minds as to what is proper. Mine was one of the 50's made for export, and that's how it's going back together.

Thanks for the banter. Again, for me, it's an educational discussion. I'm not here to piss in anyone's Cheerios.

jg

Not wanting to leave this on a sour note , first let me say I enjoy discussing the Winchester rifles and Carbines  with you JG ,  or anyone else that has enough time to waste on it , and never consider it arguing nor would I accuse anyone of pissing in cheerios , Who the Heck would do that Lol.  Think next time I'll take Coffinmakers lead  ( Nada Clue ).  My opinion is there is No cookie cutter or Standard  ( Special Order Rifle or Carbine )  one could be ordered any way you wanted it . Short forearm  , button cap with tab or without and so on . That goes for sights I noticed you ask about sights on an Express rifle in another thread  , again you could get anything you wanted if Winchester had it or could get it . I think lot's of Express rifles had Winchester Express sights but not all . Three of the Express rifles that I mentioned my friend has with the (Tab Plug ) One has Winchester Express sights and the other two have some kind of Two Leaf sight and Ramp front , Pretty Cool actually . I read through the thread and noticed   I  stated something incorrect , when Cliff ask if my 1876 rifles had the groove under the barrel to capture the Magazine plug , I stated that   (  all 1876 Winchesters that I had ran across had this )  . That is not true , actually I have ran across 1876 Winchesters that did not have this I call it notch / groove .  Actually I have made this type cap for Short Rifles more than once and and they require no groove . So if I misled Cliff  or anyone reading this ,  my apology . Cliff and I were speaking about the Full length magazine rifle 1873 when he ask about the 1876 rifle having the notch / groove and that is why I said yes all I had ran across had it , meaning the Full Magazine rifle . Thanks for pointing out that the Button magazine rifle does not have the notch/groove even though that is not what we were talking about , my statement could be misleading   .  I hope I got that all cleared up   ( original topic ) even though it seems far away was about the 1873 , Sorry Major 2 for getting so far off topic .  I will try my best to not continue this discussion .,,,,DT  PS take a look at the really Cool 1876 Special Order22" Short Rifle Button Mag 50 Cal  Rifle  for sale Leroy Merz # W2449 .