1851 home made conversions

[cheatin charlie]

I am bored so thought I would share the 1851 conversions I made last year in my basement.  I wanted them to be frontier gunsmith conversions vs Colt conversions
Cal .32 S&W Long
Relined cylinder and barrel
Conversion ring with spring retracted firing pin
Converted loading lever to case pusher
Fun guns to shoot

[Abilene]

Heck of a job there, pard! 

[Professor Marvel]

Very nicely done Charlie!

did you have to modify the "hand" at all ?

yhs
prof marvel

[cheatin charlie]

Very nicely done Charlie!

did you have to modify the "hand" at all ?

yhs
prof marvel

No' I only cleaned up the cylinder ratchet od as needed, still have almost all of the ratchet intact.

[Coffinmaker]

Some really KOOL guns.  I was able to give one of them a good fondle right after Charlie finished it.  Absolutely brilliant machine work.  Gorgeous guns you betcha!!

[rbertalotto]

Would ,ove to know more on what you did. I'm well versed in lining a barrel and I'm sure lining the cylinder is not much different. But making the recoil plate and turning the rear of the cylinder looks interesting.

[cheatin charlie]

Not hard to do.  Machined back of cylinder to dia. of rachet and cut forward to beginning of locking notches.  Made ring dia. of cylinder and made ID to clear cylinder and thick enough to make up for what was cut off cyl.  Made counter bore to slide over raised ring on recoil shield and drilled and taped to hold ring.  Drilled and counter bored for firing pin and small retraction spring.
Dove tailed small plate to hold firing pin and spring from coming out the back.  Plate is wide enough that recoil shield keeps in place it sits on top of machined flat on raised ring on recoil shield.  The firing pin comes in parallel with the bore and hits the top part of the primer as you can see in picture.  I was going to use .38 CF but would have to cut a lot of the ratchet away like the new made conversions cylinders but they are made of better steel and heat treatment than the Italian C&B cylinders.

[rbertalotto]

Thank you....Going to give it a try

[greyhawk]

Not hard to do.  Machined back of cylinder to dia. of rachet and cut forward to beginning of locking notches.  Made ring dia. of cylinder and made ID to clear cylinder and thick enough to make up for what was cut off cyl.  Made counter bore to slide over raised ring on recoil shield and drilled and taped to hold ring.  Drilled and counter bored for firing pin and small retraction spring.
Dove tailed small plate to hold firing pin and spring from coming out the back.  Plate is wide enough that recoil shield keeps in place it sits on top of machined flat on raised ring on recoil shield.  The firing pin comes in parallel with the bore and hits the top part of the primer as you can see in picture.  I was going to use .38 CF but would have to cut a lot of the ratchet away like the new made conversions cylinders but they are made of better steel and heat treatment than the Italian C&B cylinders.

Charlie    "Converted loading lever to case pusher"  .. has got me puzzled ? I can see (well I think I can) the end of the plunger protruding into the ball loading cut out in the frame in front of the cylinder  do you mind tellin what you did and how it works? you've done that gun up pretty when you finished !!!!

[cheatin charlie]

Here is a picture of case pusher.  I cut off loading plunger so it would not lock up cyl. at unloading time when I lowered rammer.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Charlie,

Very clever way of extracting cartridges, nice job.

Here's a link to the "Anvil Enterprise" plans for 1851 conversion.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/iB_html/uploads/post-94-54002-1851_Colt_Cartridge_Converson.pdf

AntiqueSledMan.

[rbertalotto]

The internet is an amazing tool. I've been looking for plans like this for years. Thank you AntiqueSledMan! Greatly appreciated!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Yes, thanks for that link, ASM.

[Abilene]

Heck, I'm never going to do anything at all like that, but it's cool so I saved it, too!   
Thanks!

[greyhawk]

Here is a picture of case pusher.  I cut off loading plunger so it would not lock up cyl. at unloading time when I lowered rammer.

Got it! thank you (obviously wasnt seein what I thought I saw first time round in your picture - got that second go round tho)
This is a really smart way of getting round the unloading plunger issue 

[Tinker Pearce]

That is really lovely work!  Nicely done, and the case pusher is a very cool idea. I might just have to steal that one...

[riflee]

  Howdy Charlie,

Nice job on that gun. Like it a lot.

Wonder if you could explain a little about makin the liners fer the chambers and barrel?   Maybe a little on centering on the existing holes of the chambers and barrel?

I had Starret make me a tool fer centering on chambers so I could ream them for better accuracy in cap&ball revolvers. I had them modify a center finder with a cone shaped end that was large enough to center on holes as large as 45 chambers to line up and use a chucking reamer on the holes. It works well in my mill but wonder what other gunsmiths use to center up on those existing chamber holes.

I've never lined a barrel yet. How do you do that?  I know the basics of drilling fer the liner but I don't have a lathe to make a liner the right outside diameter. No lathe to indicate and drill a barrel either. Doing it by hand drill may be a little sloppy.

I have the "51" Navy conversion with 38SW cylinder and a cylinder for 38sp. with throats in the chambers and all.  When I load fer the 38SW that uses .360 bullets I use an expander fer the 38sp that uses smaller diameter bullets so the 38sp bullets aren't loose in the 38SW cases. My 38SW cylinder is fer smokeless  powder as is the 38sp cylinder. I use black powder in both cylinders at times too. Fun but dirty.

I wanted a 1860 conversion fer a long time and then......like manna from heaven, I bought a San Marco converted from the factory to 38sp. Then......bought another in 1861 Colt pistol in 44 Colt. Really like both although it's backwards. The 1860 should be the 44 and the 1861 should be the 38. Actually the 1861 Colt model is the same as the 1860 Colt model with a Navy grip and a barrel a half inch shorter. I can like with that.

One problem with the home made conversions is having to use heal bullets in the over size barrel bores unless the barrel gets lined but then there is no throat in the chambers.

I think it would be a little difficult to make chambers liners with a throat. I've had pro gunsmiths tell me that  chambers shouldn't be lined. "I think" they could be lined if press fit with the rear outside diameter larger than the front throat part so....there would be a step for the rear part where the cartridge sits to keep it from moving forward. I wonder though...would a well press fit chamber liner be workable and not move forward when the cartridge ignites.  Would it matter if the chamber had a throat or not.

One thing I wonder about with the original conversions from the Colt factory with the ratchet modified on the original cylinder so the double pronged hand had to be used because the ratchet teeth were set between the chambers instead of lined up centered on the chambers like the cap& ball cylinders were. Getting rid of the original ratchet teeth to make new ones would shorten the ratchet a good bit. So... I wonder if the modification is made viable using the double pronged hand that moves forward more to make up for the shorter ratchet on the back of the cylinder. Colt used the original cylinders modified when they converted the cap&ball revolvers to cartridge. I just wonder how they managed making the shorter ratchet viable when the position of the teeth were rotated to line up between the chambers some so the case heads fit without making the ratchet teeth too thin like the home made conversions. My conversion has the ratchet teeth lined up centered on the chamber holes and has a thin ratchet teeth set up and....20 some years later they aren't worn down any and still work fine. When I had the cylinder made the gunsmith wanted to know if I wanted to use the original hand or go to the double pronged hand. I choose the original hand set up so if the hand got worn I could make another easier.

I better stop this reply before I get too boring. Too much coffee gets me thunkin and typing too much.

[cheatin charlie]

OK First thing I used the original cyl. that are made for black powder.  I made a fixture for the mill to hold the cyl so everything was parallel to the arbor hole.  After rear of cyl was machined to remove nipple seats I put them in fixture and reamed to .375 and then made sleeves on lathe that had throat in them and then red loctited them in place.  Remember we are talking black powder pressure.
For barrel I had 1/2" drill ground down for a pilot that matched the bore of the barrel then set them up in drill press and drilled out.  Then turned down liner in lathe for slip fit and red loctited it in. 
I only went to .32 because I did not want to take most of the ratchet out going to .38.
I used indicator to find center of the old original bores before reaming in mill.  I forgot I had to run a undersize drill down the old bore to open it up for reaming.  Being a retired machinist helped on my decisions on how to do it.  That is just the way I did it and they work fine.

[riflee]

One question. Doing the cylinder at the rear on the mill with the X and Y movement of the table and the cylinder being round did you have to keep turning the cylinder in the fixture?  Did you use a bottoming end mill or some other type cutter?

Cool that you put the throats in the chamber sleeves. I know that red high temp Loctite holds real well. There is that green Loctite for sleeves too like for old tractors and lawn mowers with sleeved chambers. I know it takes a high heat to loosen the bond of that Red Loctite. Did you use a chucking reamer to set the throats in those chamber liners? Get it nice and smooth in there? 

I'd say you did a good job on that gun and hope you have a good time shootin it.

[cheatin charlie]

The rear of the cyl was done in a lathe.  The fixture in the mill holds the cyl with front of cyl facing up.  The lathe work leaves a little bit of stock that needs cleaned up that is too much for the reamer so an undersize end mill cleans it out before reaming.  Yes I rotated cyl for each bore and indicated each in.  Harder to explain than do.