Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster

[RattlesnakeJack]

Ed:  There is a chap out there somewhere in the US who machines "spacer rings" to fit the rear of the cyliner on "shaved" Webley revolvers, so they can be used with .455 rounds, instead of having to mess with .45ACP in moon clips or having to use .45AR cases. 

If I recall correctly, he gets customers to give him the exact measurementrs of their cylinder, "cylinder ratchet boss" and the cylinder gap, so he can "custom machine" each ring to optimum thickness and fit.  In view of the odd cylinder gap you seem to have, I wonder if such an expedient might be a practical solution for you to shoot this piece without problems.  I'd have to track down more information on the device ... my impression is that a center hole drops into place over the ratchet boss on the rear of the cylinder and, with the six holes aligned with the chambers you load as normal ... i.e. I don't think any permanent alteration to the revolver is necessary ... 

As I think it through, it must come away with the empty cases as you eject them, and then get replaced for the next loading.  Sort of a custom full moon clip to space your .455 cases in the right position ...

[RattlesnakeJack]

Found this: http://knoppix.net/store/-455-Webley-Conversion-Headspacing-Rings_331593072044.html

And this:http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/webleymarkvI.html

And here's a guy who machined such a spacer sytem in two parts - a "cylinder spacer" and matching "extractor spacer" which he soldered in place  ... though I don't imagine you'd want to do something like that with this revolver! - https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jqrjpd/milsurp_monday_a_deshaved_webley_mark_v/

[RattlesnakeJack]

Final thought ... what about a thin shim washer at the front of the cylinder to set it back a smidge?  (Might result in an excessive front cylnder gap, I suppose ...)

[smoke]

It sounds like the cylinder length varies or wobbles?

[pony express]

Perhaps it was originally made in .45 Colt, shipped to Canada as such, but sometime later someone put a 1917 .45 ACP cylinder in it?

[smoke]

How does the firing pin look? 

I wonder if someone did just what Pony Express said.  Repaired/restored the gun.  New cylinder, fix the D&T holes etc.  Just a thought.

[Baltimore Ed]

Thanks for the links Rattlesnake.  Smoke, there's no wobble, .45 colt/Schofield will not chamber, .455 and 45acp will. I believe what has happened is that the revolver had a replacement .455 cylinder installed or was originally shipped with a .455 cylinder.  My reference and the bbl caliber implies that it should be a .45colt. The finish is too much of a match on the bbl, cylinder, crane and frame and there is no evidence of a reblue. After it was retired from RCMP service the civilian owner couldn't find .455 and didn't want to shave the rear of the cylinder or recut the chambers to .45colt so he removed a little from the front end and modified the ejector to make 45acp/AR fit into the gun. The cylinder has no endshake when locked in the frame and all 6 chambers are 100% locked up tight when cycled. There IS play when the cylinder is open between the cylinder and cylinder stop on the frame. Today I trimmed a few .44-40 brass to .875 after expanding them to .450  and have successfully reloaded them several times. I have also tried just dropping .45acp handloads into the chambers without a moonclip and firing them. I shot 50 rds, about 5 out of every 6 fell out of the cylinder without any help. A mystery. Too bad it cant talk.

[Baltimore Ed]

Came across this and am thinking this is how the cylinder got moved forward without damaging the rear of the cylinder or altering the .455 chambers.  A 45acp 1917 ejector star was fit to the cylinder and ejector rod and trimmed a bit. The star on my revolver is the only part that is noticeably different.  There's only .012 inch oal difference between the Mk1 Webley brass and a 45acp case. The difference is the .050 autorim thickness.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Question for Col. Drydock ... 

Way back in this thread you confirmed that my .455-chambered Spanish clones of the S&W DA Frontier revolver would be acceptable substitutes for my NWMP persona. 

What I am now seeking to confirm is whether a modern reproduction break-action S&W revolver would also be acceptable - I have in mind a Uberti Schofield (chambered in .45 Colt) which I may have an opportunity to acquire. 

As far as specific 19th century use of S&W revolvers by the NWMP goes (beyond the .38 revolvers already mentioned and discussed) as a partial solution to the problem the Force had with their initial supply of .450 Adams revolvers, they are known to have acquired, late in 1874, thirty S&W "Old Model Russian" revolvers (chambered in .44 Russian) from the M.W. Robinson Company in New York, shipped to them via Fort Benton, M.T.   

What I have a possible opportunity to get is a 7"-barreled Uberti Schofield ... although "cosmetically" different from the Russian Model, I understand that "functionally" they are pretty much the same.  I would hope that this functional similarity, together with the primary GAF emphasis on the correct rifle for one's impression, would make it acceptable.

I must admit that cabin fever is definitely setting in,in view of my serious consideration of acquiring yet another pistol ... especially one as pricey as a Uberti top-break!  (It may only be feasible for me at this time if they will take a trade-in or two as part of the transaction ...)

I have always hankered after a S&W top-break clone, although have been put off until now by the cost and also by reported problems with some of them (although that was more with the less expensive ASM revolvers, I gather.)  At any rate, I am back to drooling over the possibility ....

Ironically, in his annual report for 1875, the NWMP Commissioner reprted that the Smith & Wessons were "very likely to get out of order and the severe cold is apt to snap the extractor spring."   

At least I can be reasonably confident that "severe cold" is a highly unlikely meteorological condition at a Muster ...   

[smoke]

RsJ...did you ever get that frock? 

[RattlesnakeJack]

Smoke,

If you mean the stable jacket ... yes, I did.

I haven't posted any pictures of it yet, because when it arrived, I decided I did not like the spacing and position of the front closure buttons and buttonholes, so I started to alter it and it still languishes in an unfinished state.

When I ordered it, I had taken a color photo from online (top left in the attached composite) and "photoshopped" it into a mock-up of what I wanted - removed pockets, lowered the height of the collar, reduced the amount of "cutaway" at lower front, and revised color - as seen at lower left.  What I received was very close to that mock-up image, but something was bothering me about that front button placement, so I went back and looked at my various images.  I realized then that I also should have revised the positioning of the front closure buttons in my mock-up image so that, while remaining evenly spaced, the lower button would be much closer to the lower edge. The four details cropped from period photos will show the type of spacing I should have represented in my mock-up.   I will admit that they quite faithfully produced a jacket very much like my mock-up image, although they had positioned the front button group even higher above the lower edge than in the mock-up.  The result was a look which was shouting "wrong" to me, and crying out for correction.



As it turned out, I had either been too generous with my measurements, or they over-performed on my request to make the jacket fairly loose rather than a snug fit - or a combination of both factors - because the jacket as received was so "roomy" that I can actually take the two front edges back far enough to eliminate the buttonholes, and then re-space them the way I think they should be ...

It is still a work in progress, however ... I am hand-sewing it, and so far only have the buttonhole side cut back past the buttonholes and re-seamed.  Still need to do the other side, plus re-attach the standing collar (which I had to take off to accomplish all this) and then will have to position and make the buttonholes ...

[RattlesnakeJack]

Further to that reply, although I neglected to take a photo of the jacket as received before I started altering it, I would say the button spacing and positioning on it were something like this - quite close to the conceptual image i had sent them, but with the button grouping spaced even a little higher than the admittedly too-high positioning in my mock-up. 



The result of that compounded error just looked too much like a poorly proportioned tunic, rather than a "buttoned almost to the bottom" jacket like the originals ...

[DeaconKC]

RSJ, my dear Sir!
I have one of the Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt and run it as my favorite gun in my CAS shooting. It has run flawlessly, I clean it after every match and it delivers excellent accuracy. Mine is the 7" barreled version. I am on the lookout to replace the Vaquero hanging on my other hip as soon as I can, that's how much I like them.

[smoke]

RsJ....You are far more brave or adventuresome than I am.  That is always been my biggest fear with ordering from an Indian/Chinese vendor.  The wrong size.  I have heard too many horror stories over the years from reenactors.  US sizes have not translated well.  Admittedly they were mostly Chinese vendors although some Italian reenactors had a very bad time with one of the large Indian vendors.

Did you order in inches or that blasphemous metric system?

Apart from sizing, how do you find the quality of the stable jacket?

Have you ordered other things from this vendor?

I have debated ordering a pair of 1902 SD trousers from Replicators via their Amazon store.  $50 cheaper than WPG and Amazon offers some protection.

[RattlesnakeJack]

RSJ, my dear Sir!
I have one of the Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt and run it as my favorite gun in my CAS shooting.

Deacon ...

Thank you for those encouraging words! 

I read at least one "tale of woe" from someone with a Uberti Schofield, who seems to have gotten a lemon ... a "Monday morning" piece, or something of that sort.   Another chap had a recurring problem, but the second time they authorized him to send it back they replaced it completely, which was encouraging ...

Most of the comments I have seen, however, have been quite positive.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Smoke,

I have dealt with Replicaters (their rather "individualized" spelling) for quite a few years, and virtually all of my uniforms were made by them.  I don't know about their Amazon store (... didn't even realize they have one, in fact ...) but dealing with them directly (via their website and e-mail) as I have always done, you can communicate back and forth as much as necessary to clarify any issues or concerns before ordering, and you then send them your necessary measurements noted on a size chart (... looks to me to be USN for Dress Whites ...) and they make it to those measurements.  So far all of my orders have fit fine, according to the measurements I sent.  They do stress details like measuring your waist at the bellybutton (for both tunics and pants) so you ignore such particulars at your peril.

That happened to one of the members of my Artillery Detachment, when we ordered new tunics a couple of years ago.  I gave everybody a copy of the size chart, and stressed that these should be actual measurements, taken at the body location/as instructed on the size chart.  One know-it-all (a retired teacher, which I am sure is a factor) gave his waist measurement as the size of blue jeans he wears!  Keep in mind he wrote this on a tunic size chart! You guessed it .... being someone with a prominent beer belly who cinches his jeans up below it (... and thus  gleefully able to say "I still wear size xx waist!" ...) when the tunics arrived they all fit nicely except his, which did not come even close to buttoning over his paunch. I immediatley said: "You gave me the pants waist size you wear, didn't you!" and he admitted he had done that, but it still took a bit of explaining to get him to understand why that was not a good idea for a tunic!  Thankfully, there was sufficient seam allowance that it could be let out to fit him.

Quality of the stable jacket is quite good, as has been everything I have gotten from them. 

You can provide measurements in inches or metric, whichever you prefer.

[smoke]

RsJ...thanks for the info and the tips on how not to screw it up.

His website looks to be helpful.  I actually had not been to it and was relying on what he listed for sale elsewhere.  Looks like I will be ordering some pants tomorrow.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Late update ...

I continue with my preparations for attending the national Muster ... even though the border is still closed to "non-essential" travel ...  (I was working up an argument that my attendance at Muster is "essential" ... but unfortunately, the details set out on the U.S. Customs & Border Protection website make that a very hard sell ...)

The border restrictions have been extended to June 21 ... so I simply have to be "ready to go" while hoping that the restrictions will finally be eased then ...

I have finally finished re-working my cotton duck stable jacket which, as posted earlier in this thread, the NWMP frequently wore as a cool and comfortable patrol jacket ... and which I intend to wear as part of my field uniform.  As I posted some time ago, when the jacket arrived from India, my request that I didn't want it to fit quite as snugly as is evident in many of the period photos had translated into something which was way too loose ... "baggy" really, even on my sizeable and rotund frame.  Also, the button spacing was rather disappointing ... the five buttons were spaced too close together and grouped too high ... as opposed to the correct even spacing almost to the bottom edge of the jacket, as seen in the period photos ...

I decided to grit my teeth and do some extensive alterations to the jacket. by cutting away the existing improperly-spaced buttonholes at the front closure ... also cutting the opposite side of the front closure back by new buttonholes  with more appropriate spacing.  Of course, that meant quite extensive needlework (all by hand) to form the new hemmed edges of the front closure area, plus removal of the collar, shortening it and then reattaching it ... and finally sewing the five new buttonholes (also entirely by hand) and attaching the buttons.

Well ... all that is finally done! 

I attach a composite picture showing (on the left) the original spacing of the buttonholes ... with a dotted line roughly showing how much I cut back the front closure edges to get rid of the existing buttonholes ... after which I of course had to turn the edges back in on both sides and hem them before the new buttonholes could be made and the buttons attached.  At center are a couple of period images showing NWMP personnel wearing the stable/patrol jacket ... which give a fairly good idea of the correct button spacing.  On the right is the finished jacket following my alterations ...

I am thinking that the bottom corners of the front closure need to be rounded more, and I will do that if and when I get time ... as well as possibly dying the jacket to a somewhat darker shade, since most of the period photos suggest a fairly dark duck (although the existing tone is somewhat "washed out" in these photos ... I feel it should be more like the tone in the "mock up image" I posted above on February 5 ...)

[smoke]

That is some good work.  It is coming along nicely!

I really hope the un-#$%K the border situation ASAP.  My BIL went up to Edmonton to help his daughter and family move back here.  They tested him (negative) and told him to isolate for 3 days and then they would retest him.  Nobody followed/called etc. so he just went on his way to get them.

Maybe try to come in through Mexico...pretty easy these days.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Looking back at this rather lengthy thread I am guilty of having created, I see that several months have passed since I posted one of my overly-wordy and boring updates on this developing impression.

Because the Covid-induced border closure, which lasted over a year and a half, has prevented my attendance at the past two National Musters, this impression ... which I originally needed to complete in the approximately four months remaining before the 2020 Muster (following the rather unexpected acquisition of a reproduction NWMP red wool dress tunic which fits me) I have had ample ongoing opportunity to add items, and to tweak those already acquired or made ... and that process continues.

At the time of my last update (...prior to my hoped-for attendance at the 2021 Muster ... which, alas, was not to be ...) I chronicled my fairly extensive re-working of the rather unsatisfactory cotton duck fatigue/stable jacket made for me in India.  I mentioned that I thought I would alter it further if I got the time.  Well, I certainly got the time, and eventually did the further adjustments, rounding off the corners of the front closure to make the jacket much closer to the appearance evident in various period photographs, as well as dyeing it to a darker and more satisfactory shade.  Rank insignia have now been applied, also ...



Although I previously indicated that it was unlikely I would bother getting the unique cotton duck cap which formed part of this NWMP fatigue uniform ... and was frequently worn with the fatigue jacket on patrol.  For that reason, it has variously been described as a patrol cap, or "prairie cap".  However, I have changed my mind! 



I have worked a trade with a young Montana acquaintance who graduated a year or so ago with a degree in historical interpretation studies (or something like that) with which he hopes to make a career in the US National Park Service or a similar line. He is a talented amateur tailor and hatter, who will construct me a couple of these caps.  He is currently in the process of producing a prototype.

I may also have mentioned that I once had on order a reproduction of the rather utilitarian British Pattern 1853 Cavalry Sabre ... which was the pattern first issued to NWMP Sergeants ...



On that first attempt to acquire a reproduction of this sword, it was on backorder for such a long time that I finally had second thoughts and cancelled the order. After all, the sabre was really only a dress wear item for NWMP Sergeants ... and would similarly be limited to wear with my dress uniform ... i.e. for a brief period at the banquet before I would have to remiove it to comfortably sit and eat ...  However, recently I was rather foolishly browsing that same dealer's website (... the sort of "mistake" we all presumably make from time to time ...) and saw that this sabre apparently was back in stock! 

You guessed it: I confirmed that it was available, and one is now making its way to me via UPS ...