Seater/crimper

[Holsterguy]

Any real advantage to the RCBS cowboy seater- roll crimp die. Was thinking about seating wit my lee die then crimping with the rcbs (38-40). Or would I be better off with the factory crimp from lee or the redding profile crimp die. Will be using 40-180c bullet from Accurate.
Thanks

[Yeso Bill]

I have a brand new set of 44-40 RCBS cowboy dies that I rarely use.  The RCBS FL die sizes the same as my Lee.  The RCBS expander is .426", same as Dillon's "G, 44 mag expander.  Lee's is .425.5".  I use Noe's .429" expander (in a Lee die) with .431" bullets.

I seat and crimp with two dies and I generally use the Redding Profile crimp.

As long as the bullet doesn't telescope into the case, I don't think the type of crimp matters.  But, I do think that 1/2 of the battle in getting non telescoping bullets is plenty of case tension on the bullet.

Billy 

[Coffinmaker]

I don't personally load any of the Bottle Neck pistol/rifle cartridges.  I do load Annealed (read "soft") straight wall cases.  Either way, years ago I gave up Seat/Crimp combination dies.  The reason, years ago, I switched to Dillon presses and dies (couple exceptions).  I had compatriots whom experienced multiple crushed cases with combination dies.  They switched to individual Seat and Crimp dies.  Also, I don't own a "Factory Crimp Die" in any cartridge.  I use (like Y Bill) Redding Profile Crimp dies.

Crimp is important.  With smokeless, you can't get a good consistent burn without a good crimp.  "Good" can be a Taper Crimp (think 45 ACP) or a Roll Crimp.  Straight wall cases are traditionally loaded with a roll crimp.  If you're shooting either in a tube magazine rifle, Roll Crimp to prevent Turtles.

Oh crap.  Verbose again.  The original question.  My personal is to use separate Seat and Crimp dies for bottle neck cases.  Just carefully adjust to crimp into the crimp groove. 

[sail32]

I use the Lee Factory Crimp dies for all my reloading.

9mm, .44-40, .30-06 etc.

That way I do not need to worry about bullet movement in Winchester 1873 magazine types, Garands and pistols.

[Major 2]

Ditto ...Lee Factory Crimp dies

also 303 Brit -30/40 Krag - 44 Rus. Colt  & special  and 32/20

[Dirty Dick]

I don't like the Lee factory crimp die on my .44-40 rounds, it acts like a cannelure at the case mouth raising the edge so it is not smooth when I run my fingernail along (Mike Venturino's criteria).  I load on a Dillon RL1050 using an RCBS shortened full length die, case expand using the powder funnel, a Dillon powder check die, Hornady new dimension .44 mag seater and finally a slight roll crimp with a Lyman .44 Russian die. Trail Boss runs through the Dillon measure almost like a ball powder. I'm not after speed, don't use the case collator but rather inspect each case and feed by hand. The extra die station on the RL1050 allows the use of the powder check die, comforting when using fast powders like  Bullseye or Unique.  My favourite 7 1/2" Pietta just gave me a 2" 10 shot group off the bench at 25 yards with Trail Boss.

Your mileage may vary.

DD

[Yeso Bill]

I'll add.  Its not real important here but I also load everything on a Dillon 550.  I haven't used a Dillon powder measure in years, preferring the RCBS Charge Master.  But, I'm not building what I call, "pistol ammo".   

I am pretty picky on my over all length and I like to load them as long as possible.  I quickly switched to the Competition Redding Bullet Die because it is micrometer adjustable.  For reasons I don't understand, lube will quickly build up on the end of the seater stem, resulting in varying lengths.  The Redding die is easy to take apart, easy to clean and likely won't need to be readjusted once screwed back together.  If so, an adjustment of a few thousands will fix it. 

I have strayed over to the "fringe side", shooting heavier bullets at greater than "normal" distances.  In my limited experience, the bullet is more accurate without a crimp.  But, not by a lot.  But I do anneal my 44-40 cases, trying to get neck case tension the same.

Smokeless:  Low Sds can be obtained without a crimp but it takes a heavy bullet and lots of slow burning powder.  I'm playing with an Accurate SWC 252 gr. GC bullet now over H4198 in the 44-40.  (actual wt. with 1:30:  259 gr.) 

But, regardless of neck tension, if your bullet isn't sitting on powder and you are loading it in a magazine.....you want some kind of crimp.

Billy

[Crow Choker]

From what I've always been told and understood is that the only difference between a set of RCBS 'Cowboy Dies' and regular set is that the Cowboy sets expander die is a tad larger diameter in order to expand the case mouth a bit more so lead bullets seat easier without shaving lead off of the bullet. A regular sets  expander stem can really do the same thing, just carefully lower as needed taking care not to split the case mouth. The sizing and bullet seating/crimping die is the same as in regular sets. A RCBS representative told me much the pretty same thing once in a phone call to them. If you have a regular set of RCBS dies for a revolver round, you can purchase the brass expander stem used in Cowboy dies. Cowboy dies can be used to reload for the same caliber they are made for to reload the same caliber using jacketed bullets. Ya just need not turn the expander stem down as far as if being used for lead bullets. In the case of my CB RCBS set designed for 44 Special/44 Russian, I have no problem with using it for 44 Colt, 44 Special, or 44 Magnum, nor using it to load jacketed 44 bullets in the Special or Magnum. The only problem I had with the 44 Mag was that I had to purchase a separate bullet seater/crimp die as the Cowboy set didn't allow enough adjust for the longer 44 Mag case. The Cowboy set also has the gold burnt bronze finish vs the chrome of the regular sets. The regular sets can do anything the Cowboy will-think they were designed mostly to catch Cowboy Action Shooters, making them think if they were going to shoot CAS, ya need to buy these dies.

In my reloading which started in '76, I used to seat and crimp in the same operation. Sometime in the late 80's I started to seat and crimp in two operations. Can't recall when I started using Lee's FCD, sometime I think after 2000, using them in straight wall revolver rounds. Worked good. One of the advantages Lee says with using them is that uniform case length isn't as critical as when seating and crimping with a sets regular seat/crimp die. Very true as with some of the calibers I reload/shoot for, case length will stretch with use, especially when shooting high pressure/high fps loadings, .357 Mag for example. I always noticed that when seating bullets and upon crimping rounds such as the .357 (44 Mag could be included) that unless cases were trimmed and/or checked for a uniform overall case length, that some bullets were at times a hair higher or lower of the crimp groove at the top of the case mouth due to differing case lengths, overall cartridge length would be uniform. It was never enough in my shooting to alter accuracy from what I could observe, but was noticeable on some reloaded rounds. Lee advised that in using their Factory Crimp Dies case length wasn't as a critical factor in crimping. In reloading ammo for lead bullets where fps is held to less than 1000fps (38 Spec, 44 Colt, 44 Spec, and 45 Colt), I rarely if ever have a problem with case stretching, esp using black powder and rarely check, if I do notice one, it gets trimmed.

Several years ago, a CAS member mentioned in several posts that even though the Lee's did as advertised, that due to the fact that as they crimped the bullet, a carbide ring within the die resized everything. The post went on to advise that besides the brass case being resized, that the sizer ring also 'swaged' the bullet to the same diameter meaning that if a shooter either bought lead bullets of a certain diameter for his caliber or a caster cast, then sized them to a specific diameter to accommodate his barrel needs, the carbide sizer will swage the bullet down to the same diameter as a jacketed bullet. Made sense to me, have also found the same info on other forums such as the HighRoad and Cast Boolits. The Rx recommended is to knock the sizer ring out of the Lee FCD and then use as directed. I never had a problem with the initial resizing/primer depriming die operation, so went back to seating and roll crimping with original dies. I reload for eight handgun calibers, six are which revolver. I did knock the primer ring out of my 38, 44, and 45 Lee FCD about a year ago and went back to using them a lot for crimping. The Lee FC Dies for bottle neck rifle calibers I have werenot affected by any having the carbide sizing ring in them, if I do put a slight crimp on them, I use the seater die with the seater stem turned up and just use a light taper crimp squeeze on the upper portion of the neck to the bullet. Just crimp calibers used in semi-auto rifles anyway and if I do crimp its just a gentle squeeze to hold bullets in a magazine during recoil. I never bought a Lee FCD for 9mm or 45 acp, just taper crimp them with the die in the set. Just use a RCBS RockChucker for all reloading for what its worth. Have gotten to long-windy am I.

[Dirty Dick]

Yeso Bill and Crow Choker,  thanks for the info, much appreciated. I was loading my .44-40s on a Dillon 550b but really wanted to use the powder check die on the 1050 that was then set up for .45 ACP, which I seldom shoot anymore (used to go through 20k to 30k a year. Yes, IPSC back in the day, a long time ago)), so the 1050 was just sitting there. I shortened the sizing die (from Dave Scovill's book)  to create a longer neck to prevent the bullets from telescoping under magazine spring pressure in my M92 and M73. The loaded round with either commercial 200gr FP or my 220gr Accurate bullets, there is a 'wasp waist' below the seated bullet, like factory ammo that has a cannelure to prevent bullet set back under spring pressure in a magazine. The very light crimp at the case mouth is to prevent bullets from walking forward under recoil in my revolvers. At 76 years old I am quite new to cowboy action, 6 months, so I have a steep learning curve to cope with, but I am having a ball shooting my first love, guns of the old west. I started loading .44-40 sixty years ago for an El Tigre, Spanish copy of the M92 Winchester carbine, bought a Lyman single cavity 429215 mould and found I had to shorten the brass if I wanted the rounds to feed from the magazine. I still have some ! My powder of choice then was SR4759, very scarce now. Also dabbled briefly (three matches) in CAS with a second gen Colt 4 3/4" in .44-40 in the mid '90s but a divorce ended that. Please cut an old man some slack if my questions seem ignorant?

Cheers, DD

[Coffinmaker]

Over the years, it has been my experience, straight wall pistol cases don't stretch.  They actually get a scooch shorter.  Unless your running really hot ammunition.  Magnum stuff.  I quit loading "hot" a long time back.  Just didn't like dealing with the recoil.  I use to load a 45 Colt load, 265Gr Cast Keith type bullet, Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8 barrel,  that gave 1490 FPS on a friends chrono.  That gun/load combo was NOT fun to shoot.  Strictly for hunting (Took and Elk with it).

Since falling down the deep, dark hole of BP and Subs, I haven't even considered trimming cases for dozens of reloads.  Just not necessary.

Brothers and Sisters of the Soot ..... Let us PLAY

[Crow Choker]

Over the years, it has been my experience, straight wall pistol cases don't stretch.  They actually get a scooch shorter.  Unless your running really hot ammunition.  Magnum stuff.  I quit loading "hot" a long time back.  Just didn't like dealing with the recoil.  I use to load a 45 Colt load, 265Gr Cast Keith type bullet, Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8 barrel,  that gave 1490 FPS on a friends chrono.  That gun/load combo was NOT fun to shoot.  Strictly for hunting (Took and Elk with it).

Since falling down the deep, dark hole of BP and Subs, I haven't even considered trimming cases for dozens of reloads.  Just not necessary.

Brothers and Sisters of the Soot ..... Let us PLAY

Agree 100% with ya Coffinmaker. Most of my case stretching was with 357 mag loads loaded up to be hand held howitzers, hot burning powders, always keep them under max loads suggested in loading books, but they were sizzling 110-140 grain jacketed HP's or 156 gas checked hard cast Thompson SWC lead bullets. Had some real scorchers. Those would stretch cases, also gave short life to the brass. I got my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag in the waning days of my need for hot roddin ammo. I did load up some Skeeter Skelton/Elmer Keith hard cast SWC's that would tip the muzzle vertical and make me think I should wrap Duck tape around the grips and my hand so as not to have the revolver ripped from my hand. Tough shootin there!

  Back when I loaded 38 Specials for police competition, 2.7 grains of Bullseye or 3.0 grains of 231 and wadcutters or SWC bullets never did anything to the brass. Neither does any of my normal black powder loadings (or smokeless that I rarely load/shoot) in my 38 Spec, 44 Colt, or 45 Colt loadings using my Uberti conversions/Open Tops or a Ruger Vaquero and Jager 45 Colt single actions. Shoot the ammo, clean/inspect the brass, and reload. No trimming with those. Hate trimming with a passion anyway. .357 Mag and 44 Mag reloading's are milder anymore, not pussycats, have some authority, but tamer from yesteryear. Load more 44 Special's using smokeless than 44 Mags anymore, just as much fun as its bigger brother.

[Yeso Bill]

I wondered if my heavier loads with heavier bullets would stretch the cases.

First off, I buy / shoot Starline brass by the 1000 and it comes in varying lengths and all short to begin with.  Instead of trimming it, I sort it by length and shoot it in those lots, trying to keep those separate.  I necksize only using the Lyman 44-40 310 neck sizer in my press.  (With it I can get as long of a neck as I need)  (Unless I want a box that will positively load in the pistols, then I FL)  The Uberti rifles have enough camming action to chamber the lightly built star line brass, but my rifle loads wouldn't work very well at a CAS shoot.   

Anyway, it has been my experience that the BP loads stretch the cases 0 and my heavier smokeless loads are stretching the cases about .0005" per firing.  (After neck sizing them)  One of the Uberti rifles I'm shooting has a maximum size chamber and the other is about .00175 smaller.  I'm not real sure that most of the case growth that I read of isn't from shooting shells in a gun with large chambers and then full length resizing it back to a size that is actually undersize for your gun.   (That brass has to go somewhere) 

Billy

[Cliff Fendley]

I like the Lee FC die for main match ammo.