Shaved .455 Webley MK VI

[RattlesnakeJack]

... A less destructive way of altering these 455 martial guns [if the cylinder is long enough] is to rebate the chambers for 45 lc which allows a 45lc case to chamber with about half of its rim thickness below the cylinder face. As you have not altered the cylinder face you can still use 455 because the 455 has a larger diameter case rim that then headspaces on the unaltered part of the cylinder and they will chamber and fire. The newish .45 Cowboy brass would work good too and look more correct than lc. Heres a rebated cylinder on my 455 smith.

I have a .455 Webley RIC revolver with rebated chambers of the sort Ed describes.  Quite some time ago I did up a very basic cross-sectional graphic to illustrate how the rebate accommodates part of the thickness of the  narrow, thick.45 Colt rim while the wider, thinner rim of .455 brass bridges the rebate and still rests against the original rear face of the cylinder, so either cartridge can be used -

[RattlesnakeJack]

The whole "kit" - Mark VI Webley revolver with Prideaux loading devices and Pritchard Greener bayonet -  -



Bayonet fitted -

[Baltimore Ed]

Watched your video Drydock, neat but after you have loaded your revolver are you really going to drop your expensive non disposable Prideaux loader on the ground? I doubt it, you?ve got to fumble around with putting it in a flap pouch or flap pocket while the guy with the moon clip is already firing his Webley. A little piece of flat stamped spring steel is disposable along with his mty brass and after dropping into the cylinder you?re done. But as a non military combat accessory it would certainly be a good thing to have in your over coat pocket as for an armed civilian with his trusty Webley.....Quick Watson, the game?s afoot!.

[Pitspitr]

The whole "kit" - Mark VI Webley revolver with Prideaux loading devices and Pritchard Greener bayonet -  -



Bayonet fitted -

Looks like something Sherlock Holmes might have carried. Or maybe James Bond 

[Niederlander]

Sorry, but moon clips aren't even actually correct in the Expansion era.  En bloc clips for the revolvers didn't come about until 1917.  Interestingly enough, the original design was actually a full moon clip, as you see now.  The Army felt they wanted only three rounds together, i.e. the half moon clip.

As far as dropping the speed loader on the ground, our brass pickers pick everything up as soon as it's safe to do so, so there really isn't any danger of losing one unless you drop them in really tall grass.

Doesn't Starline have .455 Webley brass now?  I'd do that on one of the rebated cylinders if I still had one.  I'd also ream the throats since the cylinder has been modified anyway.

As usual, all my advice is worth as much as I sell it for!

[RattlesnakeJack]

Yes, Starline produce the shorter .455 Webley Mark II cases -

https://www.starlinebrass.com/455-webley-mkii

However, to the best of my knowledge, nobody presently produces the the original Mark I case length necessary to accommodate a full charge of black powder (nor has anyone done so in the recent past.)  I personally have quite a few Dominion Cartridge Company produced .455 Colt cases which I use for black powder loads. (The .455 Colt cartridge case was essentially the same as the .455 Webley Mark I, as was the .455 Eley cartridge - and, for that matter, was the same as the earlier Enfield cartridge case - ioriginally designated as a .455 calibre round although the final Mark III version of the Enfield cartidge used a heeled .476 calibre bullet.)  Indeed, as I often point out the Adams, Enfield and Webley cartridges were all actually .455, despite their somewhat confusing calibre designations ...

[cpt dan blodgett]

As usual this thread is a wonderful history lesson thanks guys

[Whiskey Double]

Thanks guys !! I've read and reread. A lot of info to process. Received my Mk VI today !!! Loaded 45 AR  4.5 gr. Trail Boss with 255 Hornady swaged , OAL .025 short of chambers . Shot a little bit right of POA but a nice 10 shot group. Loaded with AR dies . Waiting on 455 Webley dies for reloads. Thanks Again for all your help.

[Drydock]

http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html

A nice little article that tells you what that "6 Tons" stamp really means.

[Drydock]

Recently I picked up a Webley MK 1** (Another mislabeled item on GB I could not pass up) This is a former RN MK 1 revolver rebuilt to MK V standards in 1914, with a new cylinder, barrel and some updated internals.  And reproofed for smokeless loadings.  Unlike my other Webleys, this one is unaltered, so I needed proper brass for it.  Got 200 Starline 455 MK II cases from Midway before they closed down the pickup office. 

I decided to try Mike Beliveaus Blue Dot loads with my Accurate 262 grain bullet.  I cut back to 6.5 grains, in using a different bullet and not having a powder trickler.  And I am impressed with them.  Accurate, shot to sights, ran just under 650 out of the revolver, and VERY clean burning.  All signs show very mild pressure.  This is also a listed load in the Lee Red book.

This will be my go to heavy bullet powder in the Webleys for now on.   I'll transition to it in my .45 ARs once they've been shot up.  I'll continue with Red Dot in the lighter bullet loads.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Sounds promising indeed, Chuck!

If you could get some Mark I brass (e.g. .455 Colt on the North American market) it would be a dandy revolver for full black powder loads ...   
You know ... get "period correct" ... 

[Baltimore Ed]

Nice find Drydock.

[Drydock]

Oh how I wish someone would do Mk 1 Brass!  .45 Cowboy Special is SOOO damn close, just need to thin the rim a bit.  Hey, Starline, do this!

That is a lovely sight indeed, Grant. 

[RattlesnakeJack]

Ironically, I have been in communication very recently with a chap up here in Alberta who got a die machined for him for use in an arbor press to swage the rims of .45 Cowboy cases thnner, for use in .455 revolvers. 



Amount by which the unswaged rim projects above the face of the die -

In the press -


Comparison of unswaged rim (left) and swaged rim (right) -


It was basiclly an experiment, but he reports that the modified cases fit in his two unshaved .455 revolvers just fine, and that they cycle without any binding. 

He only has a one ton press, and he says it is barely adequate, as he has to give the press handle a good smack after it has bottomed out mechanically, to get full compression.  Sounds like a two ton or better press would be ideal.

[Baltimore Ed]

Rattlesnake, none of your press photos are posting. Sounds interesting.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Rattlesnake, none of your press photos are posting. Sounds interesting.

Don't know what is going on, lately ... those are links to the images on my ImageShack account, which have always shown up previously ... 

I hate using the forum "Attachment" feature because, as far as I can determine, there is no way to intersperse the images within the text, there is an annoying - and rather low - size limit on the files (meaning I usually have to go in and check that first, and often must reduce resolution substantially to be able to post an image), there is a limit of four attachments per post, and "Previewing" the post does not display the attachments... you have to actually post the entry before you can see if they "took" ...

Anyway, here they are ... hopefully ... and hopefully in the same order as the captions in my post above ...

[RattlesnakeJack]

Note that in the last photo you can quite clearly see the amount of rim thickness reduction on the swaged case on the right, since the die leaves the rim at its original thickness below the extractor rebate for the full diameter of the case body.

[Baltimore Ed]

Neat idea, I love clever people, should enlarge the rim a little and complete the transformation from an ugly ducking to a British bulldog. I need to find someone at a shoot and buy a handful of those 45cowboy brass to 'sperement with myself. Does it affect the case dimensions enough to interfere with the shell holder when reloading. I?ve had 45lc brass [same oddball headstamp] that were a too tight fit where everything else was fine, I gave them away at my last club match. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Grant; Does your friend have any plans to offer such a die to the rest of us Webley owners?

[RattlesnakeJack]

He says that the rim diameter is increased enough that they no longer fit in a 45Colt/Cowboy shellholder, and he has to use the one he has for .455.  I asked him what happens to the headstamp (... distorts a bit, but still quite legible ...) and also if there is a problem with primer pocket depth after swaging (... he says he noticed no difference.)

He paid a machinist to make this die for him, so I don't think he has any plans to put it into production.  I'd have to confirm that with him, of course, but if he doesn't plan on it I could likely get the specs from him (and any suggested changes he might now have regarding the depth or diameter of the rim recess after working with this prototype) if someone else might want to start making them.

I found this whole excercise quite interesting, but I have hundreds of .455 Colt cases on hand (almost all Dominion Cartridge Company production) so I'm not really in the market myself.  Quite some time ago I had fifty modified .45 Colt cases (rims thinned and shortened to .455 Mk I length) but once I had an adequate supply of .455 Colt cases I just wasn't using them, to avoid them getting mixed in with my .455 Colt cases since they required different shell holders, and eventually gave them to somebody.  (Did the same with the cases from the only box of Fiocchi Mk II cartridges I ever had, since they took small primers and were sitting unused as well.)