88-05 Gewehr

Started by ira scott, January 18, 2020, 07:52:53 PM

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ira scott

January 18, 2020, 07:52:53 PM
Does any of this distinguished audience have any experience or advice they would like to share with a 88 Commission rifle newby? I just couldn't leave it at the store hanging out with all the Glocks and ARs. It is an 1890 Amberg example that appears to have been modified with the "S" mark on the receiver and stripper clip guides added. The bore after cleaning looks V.G. to me, and slugs at .320".  I think the history of these guns is interesting, being used from before 1900, to some Chinese handmedowns showing up in Korea during the 1950s. Used by both the Germans and Chinese on opposing sides during the Boxer Rebellion, and then counterfeited by the Chinese as the Hanyang?88.

My example probably not legal as a Boxer Rebellion gun because of the stripper clip/gamer modification, but it could be an E. Era gun with .321 lead bullets and Trailboss?   
It is far better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt!

Niederlander

#1
January 19, 2020, 05:36:12 PM
Pretty much EVERYTHING old works with lead bullets and Trail Boss!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

ira scott

#2
January 19, 2020, 05:53:27 PM
Seems to be true in your hands my friend!
It is far better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt!

38OVI

#3
January 20, 2020, 09:44:32 AM
The "S" stands for "spitzer", the pointed bullet which replaced the round-nosed 8MM used previously.  The cut-out for the new bullet and the stripper clip guide were retroactively added prior to WW I.  This rifle also used a less powerful cartridge, so do not use a load for the later K-98 Mauser.  Mine was made at Danzig in 1891.

River City John

#4
January 20, 2020, 09:55:13 AM
Great find, Scotty!

Have fun working up a load for it. Lead bullet + Trail Boss worked in both the Vetterli and Mauser for me.


RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

sail32

#5
January 20, 2020, 10:05:33 AM
Hi ira scott

Your Gew 88/05 has been modified for the S cartridge and charger loading.

Your rifle has been altered to use the WW1 S cartridge..

For German military rifles in 8mm there is only one bore size, 7.9mm or 0.311 inches

There were two grove depths, the original at 0.1mm, and the later one of 0.15mm

Original 1888 Barrel =
((0.1mm)+(7.9mm)+(0.1mm)) = 8.1mm = 0.3188976 inches or ~ 0.319 inches

Barrels after July, 7 1896 =
((0.15mm)+(7.9mm)+(0.15mm)) = 8.2mm = 0.3228346 inches or ~ 0.323 inches

S bullet diameter = 8.22mm = 0.323622 inches or ~ 0.324 inches

S and sS cartridges.

With the adoption of the S cartridge, the chambers were opened up to accept the larger neck diameter caused by the larger .0324 inch bullet.

Cartridge    Charge      Bullet form    Bullet weight    Velocity (Vo)

S= 98 = 3.2 g = short concave arched base = 10.2 grams = 895 m/s = 2936 ft/sec

sS = 98 = 2.85 grams = long torpedo shape = 12.8 grams = 785 m/s = 2575 ft/sec

Barrel lengths, 740mm = 29.13inches

The sS cartridge was adopted in 1918 as a long range machine gun cartridge and was the standard issue cartridge of WW2.


MARKINGS

  2mm diameter dot = Modified barrel contours, post 1891.

Z   3mm high = Deepened rifling groves, post 1896. A large 7mm Z, may also be stamped on the right side of the butt.   

S   3mm high = Rifles suitable altered for S-Munition. 1903-5. An additional 7mm crowned S may be found on the right side of the butt.

n   2mm high = Signifies an 88/14 conversion, 1914-15.

Unit marking are generally located on the left side of the barrel band, and occasionally on the top service of the butt plate. For example ( 132.R.5.116 )       


The preceding information was from, German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871 to 1945.
By Hans Dieter Gotz. Translated by Dr. Edward Force, CCSU. Includes information on assault rifles and Sten copies.

Major 2

#6
January 20, 2020, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: River City John on January 20, 2020, 09:55:13 AM
Great find, Scotty!

Have fun working up a load for it. Lead bullet + Trail Boss worked in both the Vetterli and Mauser for me.


RCJ

Ditto... for my Krags  03  M1917  and SMLE Mk 3 ...for the Vetterli I'm using BP
when planets align...do the deal !

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

#7
January 21, 2020, 10:39:51 AM
My 88/05 has a Turkish sight ladder. I used to have a "favorite", describing the history of the M88, posted here somewhere, but this is a closest I could come with a search;

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,53710.msg651432.html#msg651432

I bought it as I was curious, and have an affinity for the Scandinavian Corps serving the Afrikaaners in the Anglo-Boer war, as they were issued with the original version. I bought it blind, not knowing which mod it had, but lucked out as I am already set up for the Mauser M89-K
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

pony express

#8
January 21, 2020, 10:00:03 PM
Scotty, I also have a Gew88-05, while technically it should be out of our era, our Chief Ordinance Officer Col Drydock  has approved it. Mine also has the Turk makings on the rear sight. For cast bullet use, I use the Lee 205 gr .329 bullet sized to .325. Yes, it's bigger than the groove diameter, but then so was the jacketed bullet the Germans shot in them. The throat area was reamed to accept the larger bullets, then tapered down to the original dimensions. If you size the bullets much smaller than .323, you'll have to get a smaller expander die or the rounds won't have enough neck tension. Also, at least with mine, I've found that shorter bullets allow the whole cartridge to move forward in the magazine under recoil, which can cause jams when they get far enough forward on the rounded follower (rounds end up in a "nose down" position). Not a problem with the original design, the en-block clips kept that from happening. Without the clip, there's only the overall cartridge length to keep the case "centered" on the lifter. That's why I'm using the 205s. 165gr "loverin" style bullets made it a single shot.

Niederlander

#9
January 22, 2020, 07:08:04 PM
There you go.........the voice of experience!  Can't beat that!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

sail32

#10
January 23, 2020, 10:00:58 AM
Hi ira scott,

Converting your Gew 88/05 back to using the 1888 clip should be easy.

The conversion was done by;

Fixing a1888 clip so it would not eject,

Adding ears to support the 1898 charger,

And attaching a sheet metal plate to cover the 1888 clip ejection port at the bottom of the magazine.

You may have to grind the 1898 charger guide ears off if it interferes with the 1888 clip.

https://modernfirearms.net/en/military-rifles/bolt-action-rifles/germany-bolt-action-rifles/gew-88-eng/#group-6

A source of information would be ;

The German 1888 Commission Rifle Collectors Forum

http://www.gew88.com/

Liberty Tree Collector has 1888 clips

https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8940&idcategory=0

As long as has the barrel jacket and altered to clip loading, I would think it would qualify.

pony express

#11
January 23, 2020, 07:11:38 PM
Quote from: sail32 on January 23, 2020, 10:00:58 AM
Hi ira scott,



The conversion was done by;

Fixing a1888 clip so it would not eject,



As long as has the barrel jacket and altered to clip loading, I would think it would qualify.
Actually, they put steel filler pieces in the sides of the magazine well to fill in the area where the clip would fit, they appear to be silver soldered in place.

Edit: Almost forgot, they also machined a slot at the top of the magazine well and installed a spring loaded retainer to keep the rounds down in the magazine.

ira scott

#12
February 04, 2020, 08:27:10 PM
Thanks to everyone for the information and advice. Sine our C.O.O. Col. Drydock has approved the old girl in her modified form, I think I will stick with the stripper clips. I assuredly will have no speed advantage with the stripper clips compared to the experienced users of Krags and Mills belts! I found some .321D. 184 grain lead gas check bullets from the Blue Falcon Bullet Co. that I will try for my first attempt at live fire. I found an old set of Lyman 8mm dies at the last local gunshow and simply turned down the expander button to provide neck tension for the smaller diameter bullets. If it works I may have to decide if I want to be German or Chinese during the Boxer Rebellion. What do I need for a Chinese uniform, pajamas and flip flops?  Might be pretty comfortable to wear in June!
It is far better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt!

Drydock

#16
February 05, 2020, 10:49:52 AM
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Drydock

#17
February 05, 2020, 10:54:41 AM
the one constant among the boxers is the color red.  A sash, head scarf, or tunic. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Drydock

#18
February 05, 2020, 10:58:25 AM
And yes, I have no problem with the modified 88s.  They still look the part, and for what we do the Stripper clips are slower than the Mannlicher clips, so no advantage there.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

pony express

#19
February 05, 2020, 06:52:24 PM
Quote from: Drydock on February 05, 2020, 10:58:25 AM
the Stripper clips are slower than the Mannlicher clips,

And also MUCH cheaper and easily available.

Ira, Another possibility is a US Marine of the period! Somewhere on this board is a picture of US Marines on board a ship, with GEW88s. Apparently they picked them up during the boxer campaign, and liked them better than their 1895 Lee-Navy rifles. Or maybe just picked them up as souvenirs.
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