Indian Scout Symbol

[Chunger]

I am unable to post three photos of Indian scouts because it results in the file being too large to post but here is my question. I am trying to identify the significance of a symbol on the hat of some of the scouts...it appears as a large letter ?X?. It should be noted that some scouts are holding Spencer carbines and some are wearing western type slouch hats but only a few have the ?X? prominently displayed on the hat. It?s interesting that the pictures are of scouts that are not of the same tribe or even in close geographical proximity. Scouts in two of the pics were in the Modoc Campaign in northern CA/Oregon and the third pic is of Warm Springs Apaches in SE Arizona. They utilize  the symbol X but seemingly have nothing in common language-wise or proximity and not all scouts wear the symbol on their hat. Some of the X symbols are more ornate than others but clearly bear the large X.

I have read that some Army forts kept records of guns that were issued to Indian scouts. Any suggestions regarding how to locate any such records is greatly appreciated.

- Chunger

[Coal Creek Griff]

I'd have to see the photos, but could the symbol be the crossed arrows symbol of the Indian scouts?

CC Griff

[Drydock]

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IW37

Early Scouts often wore the crossed sabres of the cavalry as well. 

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IW3


The crossed arrows are still used today as Branch Insignia of Special Forces.

[Two Flints]

Try this link:  https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/2429/ssht-0030_lo_res.pdf?sequence=2

Scroll down to page 79 read the article   THE INDIAN SCOUT CAMPAIGN HAT  that begins half way down on page 79 to page 80

[Chunger]

I have put three photos on google photos and they can be accessed At

https://photos.app.goo.gl/h4YuHrFD7XbBQLBy8

Thank you for the prompt replies and excellent suggestions regarding my initial post. If the X represents the Indian scout insignia, I?m wondering why it doesn?t appear on the hats of all the scouts? How would the scouts without any insignia be identified as friendlies on the battlefield?

[Drydock]

Prior to 1890, Indian Scouts had no official insignia, and were only temporary employees, with a maximum time in service of 6 months.  They also had no official uniform, instead wearing their usual clothing. (thus easy to distinguish from regular troops)  They were often given older accouterments and decorations that struck their fancy.  Thus the Hardee hats and 4 button blouses.  Most of the insignia seen in your photos appear to be the crossed cannons of artillery, some being worn vertical instead of horizontal as per regulations.  In addition, at least 2 scouts in the far right photo appear to be wearing the pre 1872 infantry bugle, or hunting horn.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CW3

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CW4

[Coffinmaker]

Dunno Boys and Girls.  When I first perused this thread and it's title, I immediately pictured an old Indian Motorcycle Advertisement that also offered a Motorcycle "Badge."   

[Drydock]

They all rode Excelsior-Henderson Super Xs?

[Chunger]

Thank you Drydock, great information and thank you for including links to images of the symbols! I had not seen the crossed cannons insignia of the artillery before and it certainly is very similar to the large X adorning the hats. I appreciate your timely responses.

Indian scout info is interesting to me because I have a M1860 Spencer carbine with tack holes and some tackhead indentations along the stock and some carved symbols in the stock and one on the forend. The symbols on the stock appear to be the letter X surrounded by four plus (+) signs which could possibly symbolize the Four Directions, the Four Elements, etc. BTW, thank you for your service, I was Navy for six years - Go Navy!

Note to Coffinmaker: Your response made me chuckle because I love the old Indian motorcycles and had given thought as to how best to phrase the subject of my post. I did not give sufficient thought!

This forum is great!

[Drydock]

I did 20 years.  They send me a check every month now, to stay away.  Further confluence: I rode my Indian Scout (2016) around last years muster.

[St. George]

St. George's Notes XXI - Indian Scout Uniforms...

? on: August 02, 2005, 12:42:43 PM ?     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every so often - someone wants to do an Impression of  a Scout - more often, an Indian Scout or someone associated with them.

That way - they get to use all sorts of bits and pieces that they figure a scout would wear.

There was a difference, though.

Early on - such fanciful dress would've been a common sight, since those folks would not've been subject to a uniform - but after 1866 - things changed, because prior to that time - Indians employed as scouts and guides were not actually soldiers but were considered employees.

The history of Indians employed by the Army is a long one - Indians having aided the Army in the Revolution, the War of 1812, and on both sides of the Civil War - with at least one becoming a General.

In 1891 - the War Department manned some Cavalry Troops and Infantry Companies with Indians - but these men served as regular troops - wearing the standard uniform - and 'not' as Indian Scouts.

On 28 July 1866 - the Congress authorized the Army to have a Corps of Indian Scouts.

There was an  'actual' uniform that came about in at that time - and they wore cast-off and obsolete uniforms.

In 1890 - special uniforms were prescribed - with that uniform being proposed by First Lieutenant Edward Casey - Commander of the Indian Scouts Troop at Fort Keough, Montana, who wrote the Secretary of War with his suggestions.

War Department Circular - dated 15 August 1890 - authorized a distinct uniform virtually unchanged from that of the one suggested by the Lieutenant.

It included a Black felt fatigue hat with a 3 1/2" brim and a 3 1/2" crown, A White hat cord with a Red strand intermixed decorated the hat, along with a special hat ornament.

The standard Dark Blue shirt was modified to have a deeper collar "to hold a neck-handkerchief".

The overcoat was unusual insofar as it was designed to fit over 'all' accouterments.

It came within 10" of the ground, featured a long rear slit to allow for more comfortable seating on the saddle and it at also had a pointed hood.

A surviving example is in the Collection of Fort Sill's Museum.

The Scout Dress uniform was generally similar to the standard uniform with chevrons, trouser stripes  and other trim of White with Red trim.

When that uniform changed in 1902 - the White with Red trim remained.

From 1890 until early in the twentieth century - Regulations called for Indian Scouts to wear Silver-colored crossed arrows on the Dress Blue uniform's Brass helmet plate.

The Quartermaster Depot initially stocked this insignia, but by 1900 all initial purchases were exhausted.

Lieutenant Casey recommended:  "Two arrows, crossed, to be made of nickel or of some white metal, three inches in height, the letters USS in the intersection' as the ornament for the special Black hat.

The Office of the Quartermaster General Specifications Number 318, dated March 1892 - depicts this insignia.

The Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot issued several hundred of these insignia and in November of 1893 - placed a second order for 323 additional devices - as the cost of .15 each.

As an aside - in the 1960's - a partial original insignia was used to make a die and restrike copies were made of this unique insignia.

No complete original hat devices are known - though the Philadelphia Depot had 275 in stock in March of 1901.

Prescribed in 1902 - the block letters USS were worn on both the collar and the hat - until they were withdrawn in 1907 when the Army removed all Campaign hat insignia.

In 1902 - the Bronze letters were also worn on the collars of service coats until the Army changed to a collar disk in 1910.

Also in 1902 - the Army decided not to issue the Indian Scouts a new dress uniform - issuing Service uniforms only.

Specifications of 1915 call for Gilt letters of the same design and style of the older Bronze letters.

No evidence has been given to suggest that they were produced, as there was no Dress uniform requiring their issue.

In March 1921 - the Indian Scouts became a part of the Detached Enlisted Man's List - and were authorized a collar disk featuring the crossed arrows - unlike that of the regularly-issued disk for that element - the Great Seal.

Few would actually wear this insignia, as by that time there were only 23  men eligible.

With the adoption of the crossed arrow disk - the USS disk disappeared completely.

In the '20's and '30's - Indian Scouts served as a labor force - assisting carpenters, plumbers and others.

They wore whatever insignia was available as they faded into the mists of history - though one Apache Scout Detachment continued to perform military duties (a wide-ranging description, to be sure) until disbanded.


Scouts Out!

[Snakeeater]

I wore the Crossed Arrow enlisted insignia on my Class A, B and C uniforms back in the day, but if I'm going to dress up to portray any other outfit than the one I served with, it would be the 1st Regiment of Cherokee Mounted Rifles CSA since I had relatives that served in the regiment, chiefly its commander Brigadier General Isaac (Stand Firm) Uwatie.

[Chunger]

I greatly appreciate the additional input.
St. George, outstanding info regarding Indian scout uniforms, thank you for posting.
Snakeeater, what fantastic genealogical history you have!

[Snakeeater]

Isaac (Stand Firm) Uwatie is my first cousin six times removed. His aunt, Alice Watts, was my ancestress. I am descended from two of her granddaughters on separate lines, the Hayes and Seago families, formerly of Anson County, North Carolina, who came to Texas after the Civil War. My great-great-grandparents Henry Oscar Miles Seago (1845-1930) and his wife Mary Francis Hayes (1850-1922) were double first cousins. Henry's grandmother was Mary's grandfather's sister, and their great-grandparents were also another marriage between the two families. Mary's great-grandfather, Sgt. Elias P. Hayes (born 1785), was one of the military escorts on the Trail of Tears, and never came back. He settled and apparently took another Cherokee bride, raising yet another family near Fort Smith in Indian Territory. Our family were known as the Ridge faction, and Alice's brother was Major Ridge, who together with his brother, David Uwatie, published the Cherokee newspaper, The Phoenix. Ridge, together with his son, John, and brother David and his son, Isaac were signatories to the Treaty of New Echota, the treaty with the United States that exchanged the lands of the Cherokee east of the Mississippi for the lands in the Indian Territory in perpetuity, in exchange for $5.7 Million. Ridge and his brother, along with John Ridge were assassinated in separate events in 1839 and 1842. In the case of Isaac (Stand Firm) Uwatie, he only survived his father's assassination by catching a faster horse.

[Chunger]

Snakeeater, I enjoyed reading your family genealogy. You clearly have done a lot of research and I?m sure that a lot of your family history has been passed down from grandmothers. I lived in Oklahoma for five years and loved every minute. Great history, great people. I had the privilege of sitting with Wilma Mankiller when she was head of The Cherokee Nation. She was flying home from Washington where she paid back a debt to the government that she discovered when going through old ledgers. I think the long forgotten debt was over 100 years old. Very admirable! Thanks for sharing.

Many Indian scouts were in possession of Spencer carbines and I?m trying to find old logs or records that would list guns that were issued to scouts by the Army. I have read that Gen. Crook kept such records pertaining to his scouts at Fort Wingate. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.