Shotgun barrel lengths?

[Oregon Bill]

This came up in the hammer guns thread on the gun forum. How many of you who shoot doubles shoot the longer 28-32-inch barrels? I ask because a quick scan of the images in the shotguns chapter of Firearms of the American West shows 26 of the 32 shotguns with discernable barrel lengths seem to be full-length barrels. Most of the originals I have seen in museum collections likewise sport longer barrels. This leads me to believe the great preponderence of "coach-gun" length barrels of 20 inches used in current CAS activities are out of whack with what was used in the real West. What say y'all?

[Lars]

It would appear that only perhaps guys riding "shotgun" on stagecoaches and some folks in towns would have any reason whatso ever for a short-barreled shotgun. For any other purpose a short-barreled shotguns, that is one that has had its barrels cut off, is pretty much a ruined shotgun.

Of course, CAS, especially the SASS variety, is driven heavily by Hollywood, which means that adherance to historical reality is not a criteria. Adhearance to Hollywood movies is.

Lars

[Jax Orebetter]

My double had 28" barrels. I tried one of those coach guns and it just didn't ballance right for me. Plus, I couldn't hit a flyer or a popper to save my life. Usually don't have any troubles with mine.

[Wymore Wrangler]

My double had 28" barrels. I tried one of those coach guns and it just didn't ballance right for me. Plus, I couldn't hit a flyer or a popper to save my life. Usually don't have any troubles with mine.

Except remembering where you left it....

I like the longer barrel shotguns, but they are hard to find in doubles, and the shorter ones just seem to navigate windows and props better for me...

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

I have three original double hammered shotguns that I shoot. Two twelve gauge American Gun Co guns. One with original 24" barrells and one with 30" barrells. I have an original 10 gauge Parker made in 1878 with original 24" barrells. Both 24" guns are chocked full and Modified and the long barrelled gun is modified and cylinder bore. All are a hoot to shoot with full loads of black powder (is there anything else?) especially the 10 gauge.

Bill

[Lars]

I do love shooting scatter guns, The more rounds for the shotgun per stage, the happier I am. Love them knock downs and popper targets. We do not shoot any stationary targets with the shotgun.

Now, I can sure agree with the first sentence in what I quote above. Also with the last one. There is nothing more boring at a CAS shoot than stationary shotgun targets, knockdowns or not, with the sole exception of a first shot that launches a flyer or at least a pop-up.

One of the things that appeals to us about Working Cowboy is not having to shoot those boring, setting shotgun targets. Such a waste of ammo!!

It was real nice at the recent GAF Muster that there was only one stage with shotgun targets -- sadly they were three stationary
targets.

On a different note,  about what constitutes a "short" shotgun barrel. Except for "slug guns" and "trench guns" and "riot guns", in my experience, "normal" barrel lenghts for shotguns range from about 24 inches to 32 or more inches. "Coach guns" are really the trench and riot guns of CAS -- no more, no less. I have never seen any need for coach guns in CAS, never seen a stage that required one to shoot shotguns in confined quarters, the natural territory of trench and riot guns. Aside from having to shoot in tight quarters, I sure would not chose a coach gun for a defense gun, especially not on a stage coach.

Aside from the lighter weight and therefore much greater recoil, a 20 inch shotgun barrel gives up about 200 fps to a 28 inch barrel with same loads. So, one must use higher velocity or more shot in the shorter barrel to get the same performance on target as with a longer barrel.

Lars

[Cuts Crooked]

My favorite scatter gun is an old Crescent with 28" barrels! I find that the longer barrels, with their longer sight radius, work better fer me. Plus I need that extra weight out front to help me keep swinging on moving targets!

My 97, with it's short barrel, is nice gun for stationary targets and it's great fer turkey hunting but I cain't hit nuthun thta's moving with it!

[Oregon Bill]

I hunt with a Spartan/Baikal 12-gauge double with 28-inch barrels, and love how it handles. The recoil is much more pleasant than with the 20-inch Baikal coach gun I had. Wish my Spartan had hammers.
Bill, Cuts Crooked: Are you shooting Damascus barreled hammer guns?

[Cuts Crooked]

Oregon Bill,

Nope, my Crescent is a later import with fluid steel barrels. As near as we can figure it was made sometime after the turn of the century. (Call me a coward, but I wouldn't use an old damascus barrel even with my BP loads. )
This gun has seen a lot of hard use, but was given good care, and I won't use any thing in it but BP or very light  smokeless field loads through it. The previous owner purchased it used when he was a young man, he's in his late 80s now, and used it for many years for trap as well as pheasant hunting. It's choked full & modified and has some fairly nice wood. The bluing is gone but it has a very nice patina. The color case hardening on the breech is still sharp and mottled. It was a bit short for me so I added a heavy rubber slip on pad that I covered with a piece of brain tanned leather. Now it's perfect!

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Oregon Bill,
Damascus or laminated steel barrells, it doesn't matter. If the gun is sound (you should have it checked by a competent gunsmith before shooting it), you should be able to shoot a full factory load of black powder in it without harming the gun or yourself.

I bought all my doubles at estate auctions or private collections.They are in like new condition and retain over 95% of the case color on the frames and better then 99% bluing on the rest of the parts. It gets fairly expensive to buy a gun like this way, but that is the only way you can get one of these old guns in new condition.

I love old hammerd shotguns. I shoot nothing but full Black Powder loads in these guns, to me it is sacrilegious to shoot smokeless in any double barrell shotgun that has hammers on them, unless it is some of the modern chinese and russian junk on the market today.

The guns made in Turkey are pretty good guns. I personally don't care for the modern shotguns for CAS like the "87's" & "97's", not because they are not fine guns (originals that is), but mainly because I do a much earlier impressioin/persona and I'm not into this thing for speed, but more for the aesthetics of the game.

My shotguns are all hammered, no offense but there is nothing worse looking then a double barrelled shotgun that has been neutered (no hammers), it's sorta like a gelding shotgun....still shoots...but is missing something . Take this as sage advice and maybe a little wisdom from an old Indian.....

Bill

[Lars]

I too generally shoot doubles with external hammers for everything, including hunting. My bird guns for many years have been Husqvarna hammer doubles, one underlever made in 1938, one made in 1900 and one top lever made in 1921. For hunting I shoot nitro loads at CIP or lower pressures, although sometimes I shoot USA factory loads (SAMMI spec loads) in cold weather.  All three guns have fluid steel barrels and are tightly on face. I sometimes shoot BP loads in one of the underlevers for CAS and BP trap, sporting clays, etc.

One of my prinicpal reasons for prefering doubles with external hammers is that all of mine have rebounding hammer locks that remain in excellent conditions. I much prefer these to any trigger lock safety, even on excellent guns such as Brownings and Merkels. I also like knowing for sure if the gun is cocked or not, external hammers are better for that than cocking indicators.

My other principal reason for shooting those specific hammer doubles, especially the one made in 1921, is that it is a very well balanced shotgun that most folks hit with easily. It is my favorite bird gun -- ducks to quail. I have won BP trap shoots with the one made in 1938.

I am looking for a specific model Husqvarna top lever hammer double in 16 gauge (Model 42) with high quality Damascus barrels in excellent original conditions. It would most likely become my regular bird gun. It would be loaded with 16X65 ammo loaded to the CIP specs for such guns -- powders would be lower pressure nitro (under 8 kpsi) with modern one-peice plastic wads or 777 FFG or Swiss/Schutzen FFG with lubed card and fiber wads.

Lars

[Oregon Bill]

Lars: I've always been attracted to the Husqvarnas, but never owned one. When did Husqvarna first manufacture underlever hammer doubles?

[Silver Creek Slim]

I have two 12 ga 30" SxS's. One is an internal hammer Lefever Nitro Special circa 1926. The other is a N.R. Davis mule-ear, not sure of it's date of manufacture. I have a 12 ga 28" Baikal SxS. I have a 10 ga 32" Zabala SxS with 3 1/2" chambers in which I use fully loaded 3 1/2" BP shells.  I have a Marlin model 19 with a 30" barrel. And, I have two 12 ga coach guns. The coach guns are recent additions.

Slim

[Lars]

Oregon Bill,

Husqvarna went over to rather standardized production of guns for civilian use in 1877, when Wilhelm Tham became director and introduced extensive reforms in the methods, standards, etc. of manufacture. This was done to increase the overall quality of Husqvarnas Before that production was more of a cottage industry and quality was variable and often low.

The Lafaucheux underlever system was used from 1877 to about 1942 on Husqvarna hammer doubles.  The earliest models used pin-fire cartridges, with central-fire following quickly. These are the Husqvarna underlever hammer doubles that have been so extensively produced in Sweden and imported in recent years to USA. Most seen in USA are 12 gauge. Many 16s were made but few imported.

The Lafaucheux underlever hammer doubles had fluid steel barrels and were proofed for nitro loads from the start, following what became today's CIP system. As with all steels from the late 1800s to the mid 1900s, the quality of the steel steadily increased. All these doubles had 65 mm chambers, 73 or 75 mm barrels (with a few exceptions), almost always choked full and 1/2. They should not be shot a lot with full SAAMI chamber pressure loads -- they will slowly shoot loose. If fed loads of proper lenght and having chamber pressures about 10.000 psi, they should last forever if in good shape initally. There is plenty of steel in the barrels to allow lengthening the chambers to 70 mm. The stock dimensions are much closer to those of modern American and European doubles than to the excessive drop at heal and comb of older USA and especially British shotguns.

The Clef a l'Anglais lock box was also used from 1877. This a different underlever system (from Britian), with the underlever coming back under the trigger bow. These are seldom seen in UAS.

Shortly after, 1879, still another underlever system was used for a few years, the Roux. Don't expect to ever find one.

Top lever lock boxes, with double under lugs also were used from 1879. Around 1900-1915 dolls' head, underbites and then crossbolts were added to the top lever doubles. These guns are as strongly made as any Sauer and Merkel for the same time.

For a long time Husqvarna used backaction sidelocks, initially purchased from Sauer, later made by Husqvarna. These have proven very reliable in service. Ditto for the later introduced front action sidelocks.

All of above is from book "Husqvarna Hagelvapen 1877-1977", written by many folks having special interests and access to Husqvarna's factory records and other documents. ISBN 91-7260-193-0, printed in Belgien 1987.

Lars

[James Hunt]

with regard to barrel length: I agree with you Oregon Bill. Most of the photo's I have seen of frontier folk in the vicinity of a shotgun finds the shotgun with a long barrel. Of the few photo's I have seen of "guards", many of them had long barrels. My persona is of the transition period and I portray a commercial hide hunter and scout. I'm not sure anyone like myself would have bothered to carry a shotgun, but I would think that if I did it would probably have been an old muzzleloader with long barrels. However for my persona I do use an old outside hammer gun 12 g. with 30 inch barrels. I just feel that it would have been more realistic as I am a hunter and have no real reason for a coach gun. I'm willing to  bet that as now the vast majority of shotguns in the 19th century had long barrels, even those used by guards and lawmen.

While I use brass shells, an old discussion on the FS board convinced me that I would have more likely used paper shells, and I did intend on moving in that direction. Now I am thinking more of moveing to working cowboy, altough I think they should rename it "realistic frontier shooting".

[Oregon Bill]

James: Good advice. I can't help but wonder if the "coach gun" concept doesn't go back to flintlock-highwayman times and close-range boarding weapons such as the donderbuchse (blunderbuss). I see no preponderance of short barrels in stagecoach photos, and in fact most shooters in the 19th century believed longer-barreled shotguns "hit harder," even though we know today that that's not necessarily true, especially with smokeless. Further, a long-barreled shotgun is easier to shoot accurately, as much as one get shoot any shotgun accurately. But shooting in defense or offense was not wingshooting at all, and you wouldn't necessarily snap shoot a load of buckshot at a desperado behind a cactus 50 yards off, as you would know that even buckhot has to be aimed to be effective.

[Delmonico]

That's what I've always thought, the real sawed off ones were there but rare.  Be interesting for somone to crono BP loads in a 18 inch compared to say a 28-30, even better, the same gun before and after the hack saw.  I suspect the 18 inch does not do well with BP. 

On the other hand I've seen where somebody has experimented with length for a gun rag a couple of times and if memory serves me right, 18-20 inches gets the best with nitro loads, after that friction slows it down some.

[Ozark Tracker]

I've got one of each,  the long barrel is a little over 33 inches, it's a Baker, the other is 24 in barrels, a William Moore & Co, London.  I have shot each with the lightest load I could get.   the short one would cover a door  from  inside the house, the long one might start opening up out by the front gate.

[Delmonico]

The spread of the shot is a function of the constriction of the choke, not barrel length.  A short barreled gun can be mad to shoot full choke, a long barreled gun can be made to shoot a cylinder choke.  Cutting the barrels back on a long barreled factory gun removes this constriction.  A good shotgun smith can jug choke a short barreled gun and control the spread or those screw in devices can be installed.

[Oregon Bill]

Dang, Joss, that 10-gauge Remington looks an old warhorse if there ever was one. Do you know if Kaycee shoots it? That thing just oozes style.