Hawken Rifles, Prohibited, Why??

[Lord Eoin MacKenzie]

The prohibited list has a bunch of the Hawken style rifles.   Why?  They are the ones I can afford, and flint and I don't get along.   Thanks.

[Professor Marvel]

My Dear Lord MacKenzie

"Disapproved List:
Rifles:  Any of the so called Hawken Rifles by TC, Dixie, Traditions, Lyman Trade/Deerstalker Rifle, et al."
" unless modified to appear more correct to the period."

Why?
firstly, there were not that many Hawkens really used throughout the Great Plains and Rockies.

secondly, note the "so-called" hawkens. None of those are really a Hawkens. just a modernisch half-stock cobbled up and so named.

The Lyman Great Plains is the closest thing to a factory made Hawkens, and you see not it is on the "disapproved" list.

other valid rifles would be
Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken .54
Browning Mountain rifle
CVA Mountain Rifle

there is a nice discourse over here
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56614.msg681359.html#msg681359

and over here
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,54543.msg660421.html#msg660421
in reference to a CVA Mountain Rifle
Major said
"Generally, two barrel wedge , iron furniture, maybe pewter nose cap...
I  checked a photo of the CVA Mountain Rifle see below ... seems to qualify "

Dave has said ,
"I'll agree with the Major here Quick Fire. I have always been a purist who pushes only custom guns but yours does appear to have had the effort put in to look correct for the period so you're good.

There are a lot of brands out there that are so badly made that we make an effort to filter them out. I normally get wary anytime I hear "CVA" but personal prejudices aside, they are pretty good starter guns.


where I babble incessantly , please allow me to offer some snips:

generally speaking , the "Hawken" plains rifle gets the most "press" probably due to the various movies such as
"Jeremiah Johnson", "The Mountain Men", etc etc

The reality is that the "J.S. Hawken" shop did not make that many rifles, and additionally they made a number of styles over the course
of the years, from a flintlock fullstock up to the "ultimate" large-bore caplock half-stock rifles.

Hawken was not the only maker, there were numerous makers of "plains rifles", so one may want to cogitate upon what
one actually desires, and for what time period. It is important to remember that one should pick hardware that would be "generally available" by the desired year, but it can still be in use long afterwards. Many frugal or crotchety individuals refuse to upgrade from "perfectly good" hardware unless there was a very legitimate reason - going to war, for example...

I myself decided on 4 distinct long-guns for my spread across the "pre-cartridge" time periods:
1) a generic flintlock trade musket in ~20 ga which covers from F&IW period thru civil war - the most common are the French Fusils
2) a Lehman Trade fullstock flint rifle in .50 which covers the height of the fur trade period
3) a caplock plains halfstock in .54 which covers from ~ 1835 past the civil war
4) a Sharps 1863 paper-cutter in .54 which covers from 1863 up well into the cartridge era

Since I have settled on caplock revolvers, my colt 1851's can be mixed with the caplock half-stock or the Sharps,
as can the Remington New Model Army's . I am still building a caplock side-by-side shotgun which can also be used anytime from
~ 1830 forward.

When playing CAS, I use remington cartridge conversions with my 1866 yellowboy and an old original belgian 12 ga....
ah, if only I could find  an affordable, functioning 12 ga pinfire double!

But I digress....

if one decides, that one *must* have a J.S. Hawken over an alternate half-stock plains rifle, it would behoove one to do a bit of
homework . Rather than re-type an encyclopedia, allow me to refer your to these excellent websites:

wikipedia only skims the very surface, but does provide some names and dates
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawken_rifle

"Mountain Men" gives us a tisch more on the plain rifle
   http://www.mman.us/plainsrifle.htm

the NRA museum gets us deeper, and shows us a variation from the 'standard" iron trigger guard
   http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-galleries/the-prospering-new-republic/case-29-the-rifle-shop-and-the-plains-rifle/samuel-hawken-plains-rifle.aspx

the Hawken Shop gives us more specific details of features
   https://www.thehawkenshop.com/hawken_rifles.htm

It is good enough, please allow me to quote them:
snip---------------------------------------
Hawken Facts:

There are a multitude of sizes and styles of "Hawken" rifles - almost as varied as the men who carried them
Therefore, when we talk about "Hawkens" rifles in this catalog we are referring specifically to the "Classic"
half stock, iron mounted, big bore, "Plains" rifle. This rifle is steeped in history and linked with the opening of the West;
a rugged and manly, yet beautifully graceful piece of working hardware.

Now, just what is it that makes a "Classic" Hawken Plains Rifle? The criteria are listed as follows:
- a bare minimum bore size of .50 caliber (most average .54),
- patent hooked breech,
- all iron furniture (including nosecap),
- hourglass tang,
- long bar double set triggers
- scroll iron guard attached,
- 2 keys with iron oval escutcheons held to stock by two screws each,
- copper based German silver blade front sight,
- and plain maple stock.

Variations accepted as original are:
- one or two piece braised butt-plate,
- one piece poured pewter,  or two piece braised nosecap,
- flat sided snail of J & S period or  S. Hawken full scoop on patent breech,
-  straight breech or slanted,
- 1 1/8" barrel straight or tapered or 1" straight octagonal barrel,
- and occasionally fancy wood and patchbox.

Other things about Hawken rifles in general which might be of some interest to you are:

A. There is nearly a 1/4" taper from front to rear of the lock plate area side to side.
B. There is usually a very slight belly to the forestock, the buttstock, and the comb to buttplate area.
C. Heel of buttplate always touches ground first when barrel is held vertical to ground. The toe is off the ground from 1/4" to 3/4"
D. The forward sweep of the beaver tail cheek piece forms a continuing line with top edge of flat opposite lockplate, interrupted at wrist, it disappears.
E. Vast majority of stocks are plain maple.
F. Underrib usually affixed to barrel with screws; sometimes filed off and peened flat to under radius.
G. Soft solder half moon fill visible at muzzle end of underrib.
H. Slotted cross keys.

These features are among those most commonly encountered, but as mentioned before not always. One or more may be lacking on a specific rifle since each gun was hand crafted and later alteration may have been undertaken for various reasons. This classic rifle is once again available through "The Hawken Shop"

endsnip----------

[Tascosa Joe]

Well said professor.

[Coffinmaker]

  Yesssiree Bob   

Perfesser be a man after my own heart.  While I don't play with front stufferz, my CAS Main Play gunz are similar.  I have a choice of Either 1866 Trapper, 1860 Henry Trapper (and Rifles), 1860 Cap Gunz, 1951 Cap Gunz, or Open Tops (44s) and an Old Original Hammer Double with All Brass hulls.  Oh, and I also have 1860 Conversions and 1851 Conversions to choose from.  Cap Gunz be a bunch more fun though.  Specially since the Cap Gunz are all SNUBBIES!!

[Blair]

If I might suggest...
What I think Dave is suggesting is, providing one wishes to be "most" authentic or Historically correct within ones impression... whether it be firearm, clothing or gear, do your research before you spend the money. The weapon/firearm just happens to be one of the more costly items from any time period, and can make or brake an overall Historical impression. Not everyone can afford a custom built firearm and even fewer can build their own.
I hope this helps?
My best,
Blair

[Galloway]

Not many hawkens used really? I believe the plains rifle, or simply rifled musket was indeed used extensively west of the Mississippi, and according to my reading well into both the cartridge and repeating era. Perhaps i missed the memo?

[Niederlander]

I believe the primary reason most of the "Hawken" rifles aren't allowed is that they look NOTHING like ANY authentic Plains Rifle.  The ones that do, i.e. Lyman Great Plains Rifle, Browning Mountain Rifle, etc., ARE allowed. 

[Professor Marvel]

Not many hawkens used really? I believe the plains rifle, or simply rifled musket was indeed used extensively west of the Mississippi, and according to my reading well into both the cartridge and repeating era. Perhaps i missed the memo?

Ah my Good Galloway, you misunderstand.

True Hawkens, as made by Jacob and/or Sam'l in the Hawkens shop in St Loius, were admired but not that plentiful .

Half-stock rifles, plains rifles, and "trade rifles" ( such as the Henry trade rifle and the Lehman trade rifle)
were far more numerous.

check out Hansons book-

"Charles E. Hanson, Jr. let some of the air out of the Hawken bubble with publication of his book, The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History, in 1979.  The Hawken craze had become too much for him to endure as a historian.  With exhaustive research, he documented that the Hawken rifle wasn?t as common in the fur trapping brigades and at the Mountain Man rendezvous as the legend would lead one to believe.  Some see it as a rebuttal to Baird?s Hawken Rifes: The Mountain Man?s Choice, but Hanson was primarily correcting many of his own miss-statements in his book, The Plains Rifle.  In fact, Baird published a very favorable review of The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History and Hanson responded with a complimentary letter to the editor, so there doesn?t appear to have been any animosity between the two."

hope this helps
prof marvel

[Tascosa Joe]

I wrote the original prohibited list.  As Neiderlander said, the ones that are prohibited look nothing like a Hawken or any other rifle of the period for that matter.   I am sorry that the Jeremiah Johnson movie used a modern "Hawken".  It sure messed up a lot of peoples thought process about what was real.  The Lyman Great Plains rifle is still in production and is a fairly economical option. 

[Tascosa Joe]

On the other hand, we as an assoc will probably never be able to gather in one place and have a camp and shoot, if you want a semi period cap lock rifle to shoot, get you a Traditions "Hawken" if that is what is available and you can afford.  Just get out there and make smoke and make yourself happy.  If you are making yourself happy shooting, then we are all happy for you.
T-Joe

[Niederlander]

Sounds like EXCELLENT advice!

[Gabriel Law]

I've had a love affair with Hawken rifles since 1974 when I built my first one.  Since then about two hundred have left my shop.  Here's a couple that span that 46 year 'career'.

[Gabriel Law]

I found some pictures of a few more...

[Baltimore Ed]

Real beauties there Mr. Law. Nice work.

[Tsalagidave]

Everyone here is giving great answers. I agree that there are certain makers who have created their brand of "Hawkin" that simply does not look the part. Rather, they look more like toys than the actual firearms that they are.   The percussion rifle that I carry most is what I call a "St. Louis Rifle" but it has the classic Hawkin features.  I suppose, the only reason that I don't call it a Hawkin is because it has no "Hawkin" markings.
 
The Prof. Is right. When compared to other arms out on the frontier, the Hawkin was definitely a minority. It was to some degree, synonymous with the "mountaineer" or fur-trapper by the time of the mid-1800s. The best account of this comes from Randolph Marcy's 1859 book for Emmigrants.

"A large majority of men prefer the breech-loading arm, but there are those who still adhere tenaciously to the old-fashioned muzzle-loading-rifle as preferable to any of the modern inventions. Among these may be mentioned the border hunters and mountaineers, who cannot be persuaded to use any other than the Hawkins rifle, for the reason they know nothing about the merits of any others."

I actually encourage members to take up a Hawkins type rifle as long as it's an authentic pattern.

-Dave

[Professor Marvel]

Sooo... just fyi, traditions (and the like) got a bad rep for putting out bad replicas of Pennsylvania rilfes with a two-piece stock



here is an excellent article ( that I had misplaced) regarding possible quantity of the Hawken Rifles.

http://www.mman.us/mythhawken.htm

snip............................
"That the shop of Samuel and Jacob Hawken produced high quality, premium guns and rifles (and at a premium price, as much as six times as costly as a trade gun) cannot be disputed.  However, their shop was not a gun factory, spewing out an endless stream of rifles.  A large part of their business was gun repairs and modifications, as well as other types of iron work required by their customers, such as producing batches of traps, or fire-steels. Their gun production, which peaked at about 200 per year around the gold rush days in the latest 1840?s and earliest 1850?s, probably was consumed primarily by the local market.  The next largest market documented was the Santa Fe trade and Bent?s Fort in the 1840?s.  Even if their entire annual production been sent to the mountains, it still would have been insignificant in comparison to the numbers of guns and rifles being produced and shipped west by gun factories in Europe and eastern United States.  "
endsnip.....................

Note that the Hawken Rifle was a premier high-end made to order  rifle, rather like the
made-to order Holland and Holland .500 Nitro Express rifles for African Safaris.

then, like now, the working guy made do with what he could afford suich as
- a Fur Trade Gun ie smoothbore, such as the ubiquitous flintlock Northwest Trade Gun


- or a "fur trade rifle"  such as the Henry or Leman
note!  these were built both "fullstock" AND "halfstock" such as this example of a Leman Halfstock Trade Rifle


Sooooo , professor, why are you beating a dead horse blithering on again?

note that the Hawken Bros Rifles were Very High End and had specific details:
no brass parts, all steel (an occasional cast pewter nosecap)
the patchbox varied as time went on but was almost always iron
the trigger guard was iron and had the familiar loopy feature
large diameter heavy barrel, typically 34" or longer
two keys hold the barrel on with escutheon plates
patent snail breach tang
double set triggers
iron hooked buttplate, often with a toe reinforcing plate inlet into place
very heavy ( ie sturdy) stock as compared to lighter eastern rifles
oh, and everything in very carefully inletted, unlike trade muskets that had buttplates and trigger guards literally nailed on, proud.

howver - this example of a Leman Halfstock Plains Rifle has

- mixed metals - brass hook butplate * guard
- single pinned barrel - no key or escutcheon
- poured pewter nosecap
- simple cheap percusion drum


And this one doesn't even have  a patch box:


AHA! isn't this then an example of the cheap fake Hawkens? Noooo ... only if you try to call it a Hawken!

If you already have a shiny brass "not a hawken" you can do a lot to defarb it -
- replace the buttplate and trigger guard with iron
- darken the brass escutchon plate and patchbox and nosecap ( or replace the nosecap with pioured pewter)
- replace the fugly modern sites with semi-buckhorn and traditional front
- take off the shiny varnish and refinish with oil

if you are looking at buying a new gun, since the traditions guns are going for $450 on midway,
you should consider a Lyman Great Plains Rifle going for $550 complete (not kit) on midway right now, and
one can sometimes snag one off Gunbroker for ~ $400 ....

hope this helps
prof marvel

[Tsalagidave]

Excellent observations and examples Professor. I think that a lot of plainsmen impressions show a dearth of properly made "Tennessee Rifles", "Southern Pig Guns", "Fowlers", and the ubiquitous trade musket. There are also a lot of other options for frontiersmen that are woefully overlooked in historic impressions. My 3-primary longarms for the first half of the 19th c., would be my St. Louis Rifle (.54), Virginia rifle (.54), and Iron-mounted Southern "Poorboy" fowler (.62).

As a side note, I was never a fan of the term "Gun that won the west" as I felt that the term of "Primary Gun that helped settle the west" would be more historically accurate. I have always seen this title going to the most commonly used long arm  carried by the various people across cultures for hunting as well as a defensive deterrent. If I were to call it, I think the American Trade Musket should take the title since it was the most prolific in the hands of common settlers, frontiersmen, and native tribesmen alike. The American Trade Musket is a category of arms going back to colonial times and remained a common fixture right up till the late 19th century.  It was dirt cheap, versatile, rugged, and reliable.

While a historically accurate Hawken or Hawken Pattern is permissible with this group, they are a lot more expensive than the cheap farb rifles that wrongly carry the title.  The bottom line is that just like every firearms-related hobby, this one is not cheap either.

-Dave

[Baltimore Ed]

I don?t want to hijack your thread but how about under hammers? Always thought that they were neat and have built a couple. First deer that i harvested was with a ml that I built. Muzzleloading was my first love and what got me into shooting and hunting. Used to shoot monthly matches [early 1970s] with a group called the Swamp Fox Muzzleloaders run by a knifemaker named Travis Meadows. We shot on his backyard range near Maysville, NC. The good ol days.

[Tsalagidave]

I don?t want to hijack your thread but how about under hammers? Always thought that they were neat and have built a couple. First deer that i harvested was with a ml that I built. Muzzleloading was my first love and what got me into shooting and hunting. Used to shoot monthly matches [early 1970s] with a group called the Swamp Fox Muzzleloaders run by a knifemaker named Travis Meadows. We shot on his backyard range near Maysville, NC. The good ol days.

Ed, the under hammer topic is worthy of its own thread. Rather than it be a side note here, do you have pictures and text that can be used in creating its own thread? 

Since the mainspring and trigger guard are one in the same, I've always felt that they would be a bit delicate for hard frontier use.  Since you have much more experience than I have with these guns, would you be willing to write something up to refute my thoughts on it and present a claim for why the under hammer deserves a second look. If you did, I think I could learn a lot from what you share.

Thanks

-Dave

[Oregon Bill]

Wonderful thread here. Professor, thank you for your voluminous contributions to it.
Gabriel, you build a lovely Hawken. The full-stock flinters have always captured my imagination.