The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I got the second revolver from EMF.  It is an oddball that was a trial or special order.  It is a 4" (like the Captain Shaeffer), but blued with a birds head grip and a nickel plated grip frame.  It is not a production item, and its origin is uncertain! LOL.. Neat little belly gun, though.  VTI is out of 1851 Konverter sets, so I am on standby waiting for it.  It will be interesting to see if the hollow base wadcutter or round nose obdurate enough in a 4" barrel.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Wow, that's kind of cool-looking. How is it in the hand without the upper extension on the grip?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

It feels more like a standard grip in the hand than the Thunderer style grip with the hump.

I loaded up a box of 140 grain heeled to use at the local match Saturday.  I haven't started on my new Kirst Saber River 1860 that I am pairing with my new (actually old to me, but recently returned to me) 1875 Schofield Wells Fargo as my main match pair. 



I thought I would try the 7.5" .38 Long Colt 1851 as my second pistol. Until I test the HB wadcutters, though, I'll stick with the .375" heeled.  I used the pliers to stab crimp them since I haven't gotten the heeled bullet crimp die I ordered from OWBM.  Was too bad, maybe twice as long as loading bullets on the LEE 4 stage turret press with auto index.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

It feels more like a standard grip in the hand than the Thunderer style grip with the hump.

That would make sense. Thanks.

So how did the 7-1/2" '51 conversion perform under match conditions?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Match is this coming Saturday, I will let you know! LOL.

[Abilene]

I'm guessing someone bought or was about to buy a nickled SAA clone, probably a GWII, with those birdshead grips, and said, "I love the gun but don't like these grips.  Can you swap something else onto it, like a Navy grip?"

And "they" (whoever that was) said "sure!"

 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Could very well be.  The non-standard 4 inch barrel is a puzzle, too.  The only ones I have seen with a 4" are the Captain Schaeffer engraved.  Almost thinking it should be whacked to 3" without a rammer or ejector housing, but I doubt any hollow base would obdurate and stabilize in a 3" barrel.  I am wondering how the 4" will do?

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Match is this coming Saturday, I will let you know! LOL.

Oops. I thought it was this last Sunday. Looking forward to hearing how it works out.

Could very well be.  The non-standard 4 inch barrel is a puzzle, too.  The only ones I have seen with a 4" are the Captain Schaeffer engraved.  Almost thinking it should be whacked to 3" without a rammer or ejector housing, but I doubt any hollow base would obdurate and stabilize in a 3" barrel.  I am wondering how the 4" will do?

I'm looking forward to hearing about this, too.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Heeled bullet crimp die is in the mail to me!  It is a shame I am such a .44/.45 revolver guy.  I really dig the .38 Long Colt with its stubby, heeled bullets!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

OOOOOPS!  Not going to make the match tomorrow.  My grandson's final football game conflicts with the match, and I am not missing that!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Update:  I got the .38 heeled bullet crimp die from Bernie at Old West Bullet Molds. It is an amazing device.  Based on a LEE factory crimp die, it has an adjustable base that allows loading .38 Short Colt (.68" case), 38 Long colt  for long heeled bullets (.88" case) and .38 Long Colt for shorter heeled (1.02" case).  The crimp is bodacious and sturdy.  It really engages the heel like a 22 LR bullet. It is simple to use, like any crimp die

He also sent an assortment of his heeled base  bullets, including an ingenious hollow base healed that you can inside lube and will expand the rear portion to the bore and engage lube.

My plan has shifted to a two part article:  Part one will be about the .38 long Colt and History of it, and loading it.  Bernies stuff will be showcased, as will Bear Creek's excellent 140 grain heeled.

I will use some LEE Alox wax lube brushed on the exposed major diameter portion of the bullets.  Pic to follow.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the die works. Thanks in advance for showing the loading as well as how they shoot.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Here are some pics:

First is the bullets, Left to Right: OWBM 125 grain heeled .375 Short Colt, OWBM 150 grain, .375 Long Colt Hollow base with inside lube grooves, OWBM 150 conical .375" heeled for .88" Long Colt heeled cases, and Bear Creek moly 140 grain heeled .375" for 1.02" Long Colt cases.



loaded rounds. Left to right"  W-W "Army" .38 Long Colt with 150 grain, hollow base, inside lubed bullet, OWBM 125 grain Short Colt, OWBM 150 conical .375" heeled in .88" Long Colt case, OWBM 150 grain Hollow base with inside lube grooves in 1.02" case, OWBM 150 conical .375" heeled in 1.02" Long Colt, Bear Creek moly 140 grain heeled .375" in 1.02" Long Colt cases.



You can see how deep the crimp is.  Those bullets aren't going anywhere until fired.  Good for ignition.  The 140 Bear Creek and the 150 conical in a 1.02" case, I did with a heavier crimp.  I think I may back off a bit to preserve case life.

Note, the OWBM 150 conical is designed for the .88" Long Colt case that was used for heeled bullets.  It is a few thousands too long to fit in the Kirst/Pietta 1851 in a 1.02" case.  I did take a tack hammer and tap the nose to flatten the nose slightly, and then it fits fine in the Pietta Kirst.   I believe the 1863 Remmies are a tad longer in the cylinder, and it may work unmodified in them..

[dangt]

Tuolumne Lawman,

Pictures of the Old West crimp die I have found  have all been un-viewable Photbucket images.  How about posting a pic of the parts of your heeled-bullet crimp die?

[Marshal Will Wingam]

That's quite a crimp. It's a flat ring rather than tapered into the buller. If that doesn't hold, nothing will.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Tuolumne Lawman,

Just for your information, on my 44 Colt using the LEE 450-200-1R with a swaged heel.
I cut the lower groove out of the mold,
thinking it was causing to deep a crimp on my cases.
Not a good idea, I feel the groove is necessary to hold the bullet tight.
My die has a square faced crimp, so even on an angled crimp groove it will look to deep.
One would need the face to be angled same as crimp groove on bullet to avoid this.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Crimp die from top:  Modified LEE factory crimp die:



Step one:  Bullet is placed in extended shell holder



Step two: Extended shell holder pushed up allowing case mouth to travel the extra distance to the crimp and the base engages the bottom of the factory crimp die pushing it up.



Step three: crimp die bypasses the projectile, lining up on case mouth for tight crimp.



In order to set it for .88" Long Colt cases (for healed bullets) or .38 Short Colt cases, the small diameter portion of the shell holder screws upward where the shorter case is higher in the die, and the base still engages the bottom of the crimp die.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I like the way it works. Thanks for the photos.

[dangt]

Yes, Thanks for the pics!   These are the clearest pics of this heeled bullet crimping  device I have seen.  They answer all my questions.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Using OWBM's crimp die is so easy, there is no reason a reloader can't load heeled bullets almost as easy as non-heeled.  I use a 4 stage LEE Turret press with auto index.  First de-caps and sizes, second is the powder drop/belling die, third is the seating/crimp (backed out so no crimp).  I then put it in a tray until I get 50, then disable the auto index and use Bernie's crimp die (which uses the proprietary shell holder for the die) to crimp them all.