The Black Hills / Kirst / EMF .38 Colt ammunition project begins!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Argh!  Still waiting.  If I don't get some samples soon, I won't be able to test them in time to load up .38 Colt ammo for my Memorial Day annual match.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Are you going to try to get an accurate load worked up before the match? If so, that does make time tight. Of course whatever load has worked well with other 150 grain bullets should be close. All this depending on your getting the HB bullets in time.

[Cheyenne Logan]

TL, Catching up after a hiatus, founbd this thread and got to the end......did you ever get the BC bullets? I ask as they are not listed on their web site...

[Abilene]

TL, Catching up after a hiatus, founbd this thread and got to the end......did you ever get the BC bullets? I ask as they are not listed on their web site...

Well, well, if you are the Cheyenne Logan I am remembering, and based on your location and SASS number I think you are, then your name is Harvey and you will remember this well:


(apologies for the thread hijack)

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I just got a small 50 bullet pre-production sample pack from Bear Creek when I went to the  Railroad Flat match this last weekend.  Steve sent them to me with the shooter who sells his bullets at annual matches.  He knew I would be there.  They look awesome.  Can't wait to try them.

[Cheyenne Logan]

TL, Cody just ordered a HB mold from OWBM.....anxious to see how the perform in my Lightning and the 38 conversions.  Abilene, THANKS for the video, seems like only yesterday, but, man did Cody get OLD!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Finally working on Part two of the .38 Colt article for the Cowboy Chronicle.  I'll be using a pair of Pietta/Kirst 1851 Konversions (7.5" & 5.5").  Ill be doing load development with the new 150 grain Bear Creek hollow base and 140 grain Bear Creek heeled bullets.  I'll use WW231, Unique, Trail Boss, APP, and Triple 7 on the 150 HBs, and Triple 7 and APP on the heeled bullets.  I already know that the standard propellants SUCK with heeled bullets because there is insufficient resistance in the heel crimp.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Looking forward to hearing your results.

[C. Note]

Back in the mid 1990s, When I had my Remington Navy converted to 38 Long Outside Lubed, I purchased a .375 dia, Hollow base mould from NEI or Lee ( I cannot remember which.....will have to look at mould, when I return home, for vacation, in August). It produces about a 150 Gr flat nose bullet with 2 grease grooves and a hollow base. Will function in either .357 or .375 grooved barrels.
Pic is of ammo loaded about 1997( Need to see if they will fire).

This will be the project thread so everyone interested can be updated:

Project goal: examining possibilities of developing a Black Hills .38 Colt round that work work equally well in .375" bore cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers, and .357" bore .38 Special CAS revolvers.  With .38 Special and cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers being more popular, especially with the aging CAS shooter population, author believes there is an untapped market, that up to know has been limited by the lack of suitable ammo for the .38 Colt conversions.

Possible solutions:

One is to offer their .38 Special 148 grain Hollow Base wad Cutter (148 HBWC), in a .38 Colt case, possibly with projectile not seated flush, but rather protruding approx. 1/4" to create additional case capacity (duplicating the .38 Special case) so loading data world stay the same.

The second is to possibly replace their existing 150 grain, .357" round nose lead, solid base projectile of their .38 Colt loading with a softer lead 150 grain round nose lead, hollow base bullet as was done in the original post 1892 .38 Colt loadings, discontinued in the 1960s.

Both options would work in both converted .36 caliber percussion revolvers with the larger bore, or standard .38 Special revolvers with the modern bore.

Two .36 caliber percussion revolvers are being supplied by EMF/Pietta (an 1851 Navy Colt and an 1858 .36 caliber Navy Remington) to be used in testing the loads.

Appropriate conversion parts for both test revolvers being supplied by Walt Kirst of Kirst Konverters.

Conversion of both percussion revolvers  to .38 Colt being done by Tuolumne Lawman.

Ammunition being supplied by Jeff Hoffman OF BLACK HILLS AMMO.  Initially, standard .38 special 148 grain HBWC will be used to see if that bullet obdurates sufficiently in its current configuration (shape and alloy hardness) to give acceptable accuracy from a .38 Colt cartridge conversion of a .36 caliber percussion revolver.  Other load possibilities currently being research by Black Hills Ammunition.

[Jake MacReedy]

Wow, Abilene!  That video brought back a lot of memories!
Jake

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Reviewing my notes from initial tests with the Black Hills 148 HBWC loaded out to the same length as a RN, Trail Boss is a non-starter.  It made very anemic loads, and the hollow bases did not obdurate into the bore.  WW231 and Unique both did much better.  I will try those and APP and Triple 7 with the Bear Creek 150 grain RNHB and see which is better.  I am betting Unique will be the winner.  This round will be done with a 7.5" and a 5.5", my having traded the 4" to get the 5.5".  Loading the 150 RNHBs to the same overall length as a .38 Spcl, will give the same case capacity as .38 special in .38 Colt brass.  I am doing this, because the Kirst cylinders are .38 Spcl chambered, and 99% of the users will not be using .38 Colt brass!


Reprint of my July, 2020 test Summary:

1)  Black Hills factory .38 Colt. .357," 150 solid base RN: From both a 4" and a 7.5" .375 bore gave minute of dinner plate accuracy, with ALL bullets key-holing and tumbling through the targets at 7 yards.  Useless for practical purposes in BP revolvers with .375" bore converted with centerfire cylinder, regardless of whether the cylinder has a .357" or .375" throat.

2) Black Hills factory .38 Special 148 HBWC.  From the 7.5 " with the .357" throated cylinder did a 3.5" group, and from the same revolver with the .375" throated cylinder did a little better at 3".

3).  Bear Creek 140 grain .375" heeled bullets over 3.7 grains Trail Boss, crimped with OWBM's heel bullet crimp in Black Hills .38 Colt cases.  These cases split (no other cases in test split), but I attribute that to my using too severe a heel bullet crimp.  The rupture started where the wrinkle in the crimp occurred.  The same powder charge with a 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case did not rupture.  Groups were 1.75" to 3.0" from the test gun, with the 4" EMF 1851 giving the best group.

4) 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case, with 3.7 grains Trail Boss gave 2" from the 7.5" barrel using the .357" throated cylinder, and 2.5" when using the .375" throated cylinder.

5) 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case, with 3.3 grains of Unique gave 4" from the 7.5" barrel using the .357" throated cylinder, and 3.0" when using the .375" throated cylinder.

6). Several other powders were tried (WW231, Bullseye) and gave results essentially the same as Unique

A) In ALL cases, whether from .357" or .375" throat Kirst cylinder, Hollow Base  Wadcutters seemed to obdurate into the .375" bore to give as good of accuracy (or bretter in some cases) than the 140 grain .375" heeled bullet.  Groups were consistent and the holes cut crisp and round, with no evidence of tumbling or keyholing.

B) Barrel length (4.0" or 7.5") did not seem to have any effect on this obduration.

C) The hollow base loads, while not quite as accurate as the 140 grain .375" heeled loads, were certainly accurate enough for SASS use.

D) The tests show that hollow base bullets work well in both .357 and .375" bore revolvers.

E) (FOR JEFF) The expense of commercially loading .375" heeled bullets is prohibitive, and appeals to the somewhat limited market share of converted revolver shooters. OIn the other hand, the 150 grain, hollow base round nose bullet (of the original 1892 Army loading of the .38 Colt produced into the 1960s) would be attractive  to both SASS shooters shooting .357" bore revolvers and SASS shooters shooting .375" bore conversion revolvers.

F). (FOR WALT) There was no consistent difference in accuracy from the `.357" throated cylinders to the .375" throated ones.  It would be easier to simply produce all the cylinders with the .375", rather than in .357" with the .375" being special order.  The production being in .357" eliminates traditional shooters )like myself) that may load the original style heeled bullets.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

After quite a bit more research, I found that 4.0 grains of Unique is a duplicate for the original 1892 Army load (150 grain hollow base bullet over similar smokeless powder). 

In my earlier test, 3.3 of Unique worked well with the 148 grain hollow base wad cutter, loaded out 1/4 past case mouth. (That is the load for flush seated 148 HBs) It was still on the light side (though not as the Trail Boss, which - though accurate, were absolutely mouse f@rt loads).

The Bear Creek hollow base bullets are loaded longer, increasing case capacity with bullet in it.  Based on my experience, 4.0 grains would seem to be about right, and give more boom for expansion/obduration into the bore.


Right, is myy .38 Long Colt load, 150 grain Round Nose, Hollow Base bullet from Bear Creek over 4.0 grains Unique.  On the left is a pre-war .38 Long Colt Army load from Remington-UMC.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

How much longer than standard do you seat the hollow base bullets?

Also, do you have a photo of one of the 150 gr HB bullets?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

The Bear Creek are identical to the original so to the same depth. I'll send a picture later.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks. I just thought to check for a photo of them on the Bear Creek site. They look like they would be very effective. No need to post one. Here's their photo.



I'm looking forward to hearing your results with these.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I sent Steve at BC an original bullet for him to model.  IIRC he took his 200 grain .357" bullet and made it a hollow base that weighs 150 grains.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

That was a good thing to do. It looks like a good bullet.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

150 grain Bear Creek Round Nose Hollow Base bullet results
   
I have to preface this description of the testing by disclosing that when I did the range testing, it was the day after my three day marathon wood cutting and splitting of three chords of Oak.  I am 70, and have a permanently damaged right shoulder,  With the added effects of three days wood cutting and splitting, my group shooting skills suffered.  I knew this going into it, but mainly wanted to see if there was any key holing, or if the bullets fully obdurated into the .375" bore.

With that said, basically, the only viable load that I tested was 4.0 grains of Unique.  Basic groups at 7 yards, at one shot per second (replicating CAS) was 2.5' to 3", with an occasional shooter induced "Wow, how did that get way over there" flyer.  Note:  I had received a early pre-production sample of the bullets, but they were harder than the recent production ones.  The early samples showed some tipping, but the current production did not.  Certainly good enough for CAS.

As for Trail Boss, it is no longer available, APP sucked, as all bullets key-holed with minute of pizza pan patterns, and WW231 did not meter well enough for consistent results.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

glad to hear Unique worked so well. It's a good powder. Has Trail Boss been discontinued or are they just out of it for now?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Discontinued "for the foreseeable future" according to Hodgdon. They are prioritizing powders for producing military and commercial ammunition producers.