Merwin barrel repair

[Colt Fanning]

Has anyone had any luck repairing a broken off locking lug on Merwin Hulbert top rib?
Regards
Colt

[St. George]

Nope...

Parts for the Merwin, Hulbert are made of unobtanium, and reside in other folks' guns - and they're proud of them

Scouts Out!

[DJ]

I assume the "hook" of the topstrap is broken off--a not an uncommon defect which I suspect was due either to an overload or, more likely, getting dropped while off the gun; when disassembled the 3rd and 4th model Merwins (using Art Phelps' designations) stick 'way out and almost beg to be dropped and broken.  Such a repair is theoretically possible, and I have seen some attempts, but they were all rather ugly and I don't know how they shot or how durable the results were.  I suspect that the simultaneous locking of the upper and lower lugs would make such a repair a real labor of love without the factory jigs. 

A further consideration:  although I am not a welder, I wonder if the use of modern weld material where it locks into 19th century "steel" at a wear point would present a durability problem unless they were well matched in hardness or the locking surfaces on both the top strap and frame hardened/rebuilt.

I don't personally know of a gunsmith who specializes in Merwins, but that's what I would look for.  Failing that, someone who is expert in repairing the big top-break (Model 3) Smith and Wessons might be a resource, as you are dealing with a critical locking surface similar to a Model 3 topstrap but with the peculiarities of the Merwin added in.

I attach some photos comparing a Third Model, Double Action Merwin Hulbert and a Model 3 (Old, Old Model) Russian.  The third photo shows the top and bottom locking lugs found on the third and fourth model Merwins--they are supposed to lock simultaneously to share the load of firing.

--DJ

[Professor Marvel]

I would agree with DJ ...

The answer might just be a fantatically dedicated machinist who can make magic with a TIG, and a mill with a custom bit and a rotary table....   I smell vast sums of money ....

Yhs
Prof marvel

[St. George]

Keep in mind that the Merwin, Hulbert metallurgy is basically wrought iron and your problems increase.

Scouts Out!

[Coffinmaker]

For someone to undertake the job, the "requester" would first have to take his or her broker to lunch.  It would have to be an exceptional lunch   

The job would require a "sample example to copy."  A nice "Blob" welded onto the original top strap (metalurgically no big deal) at which point, the real FUN would begin.  A mill with custom bits (plural) and a rotary table and a lunatic machinist who likes challenges and can smell money at 50 yards.

The job is very doable.  Very Very expensive. 

There are or were some guys out there whom have restored Colt SAAs that had been blown up with the top strap completely blown off.  I don't remember who they were.  Or even if they are still around.  My first inclination would be to stop by and commune with Eddie Janis at Peacemaker Specialists.  Eddie probably wouldn't do it, but I'd bet he would know who can.

Remember the Broker and the Lunch.

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
I am a fantatically dedicated machinist and plan to give it a try.  I will post a picture if it is successful.
Regards
Colt

[Coffinmaker]

AH HA!!!  Someone for whom "cost" is no object.  When you are working for yourself, something of this nature is categorized as FUN.  Relaxation.  Take it up when you like, walk away when you need a break or hit a "wall."

When I still had all of my machines, I'd have tried it for myself of course.  Now however, I work with a file and a Hacksaw.  No Way.  But since retirement, I have been able to put together those guns I had in mind but never the time for when my shingle was still out.

PLEASE photo document the results.  I are super curious.  Would it not be wonderful if some well healed Loon were to bring the Merwin back.  In Stainless .... with the Skull Crusher grip??  Not Hardly (stolen famous movie line)

[DeaconKC]

Good luck to you!

[Blair]

Colt Fannin,

I think it would be great if you posted images of both before as well as after. I wish you the greatest of luck!
My best,
Blair

[Professor Marvel]

Regarding the welding of quality Wrought Iron:

Please bear with me as Iam on a cursed tablet at the moment.... this post will be edited as I go with links and etc added as I am able ....

True wrought iron is very low carbon with slag threads that act like fiber. It is very rust resistant,
Thus the old ML barrels don?t rust as fast with real BP... the slag produces a natural flux when hammer welded , and often inexperienced welders see the flow slag and think they are puddling metal when they are not ....

See here

https://www.esabna.com/euweb/oxy_handbook/589oxy16_10.htm
Wrought  iron, widely used a century ago, is no longer made in the U. S., but you may be called on to weld it, sincea great deal of wrought iron piping is still in service.Wrought iron has properties much like those of mild steel, but is chemically and structurally much different. It isessentially a mixture of rather pure iron and a slag made up chiefly of iron oxides and iron silicates. The slag isdistributed through the iron in the form of very fine particles which have been stretched, by rolling, into threads orfibers so small that there may be 250,000 or more per square inch of metal cross-section. This structure not onlygives the metal high ductility, but also improves its corrosion resistance.You can weld wrought iron with any good low-carbon steel rod (such as OXWELD No. 1 H.T.) and without usingflux. However, the iron component, which is virtually carbon-free, melts at a higher temperature than carbon steel,while the slag component melts at a much lower temperature. The slag will melt first and give the surface of thewelding vee a greasy appearance. With most base metals, this greasy look is a signal that the metal is ready forfusion with the filler metal, but in the case of wrought iron this is not true. Considerably more heat must be appliedbefore the metal really begins to melt.In welding wrought iron, you can concentrate the flame more on the rod than you should when welding steel, andlet the puddle build up to a fair size before moving the flame from side to side to fuse the base metal with thepuddle. Try to keep the motion of the rod to a minimum, and to melt as little of the base metal as possible.


Wrought iron lends itself to Gas brazing , which is my preferred method of repair... and Gas welding  if you know how... Electric welding works fine if you choose the right filler, and have practiced.

For a tiny part like the M&H top latch, I suggested TIG since TIG seems to lend itself to finer work, as opposed to the Farmers Friend, His giant Lincoln welder with the 1/4 inch rods...

I myself would be inclined to cut off the top strap at the middle-ish,  fabricate a new tongue and groove latch thingy and nickel silver braze the new latch and top strap on . That would be easier FOR ME to do than rebuild and remachine the  latch thingy in place. But that?s because I much better at soldering, high temp soldering, and brazing than I am at welding.

BTW, a nickel silver brazing joint, when properly done , reveals only a thin silver joint, which is stronger than the base metal, whether iron, mild, or high carbon steel.

From welders, here are some advice...

from here
https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/6997-what-electrode-to-use-on-wrought-iron/

There is a great discussion regarding how/what rod to use etc... to repair large immovable load bearing hinges for 600 pound wrought Gates...
From another fellows excerpt from a book:
Snip?
Wrought Iron, It's Manufacture, Characteristics and Applications" James Aston and Edward Story

"In welding WI by the electric arc process the best welds are produced when the welding speed is decreased slightly below that used for the same thickness of soft steel. This procedure is desirable because with reduced speed the pool of molten metal immediately following the arc is kept molten for a longer period of time, thus making for a more complete elimination of the gases and affording the entrained slag an opprotunity to float out of the weld metal.

Also it may be necessary to employ a slightly lower current value than is used with the same thickness of mild steel, particulary in welding thin sections where there is a possibility of burning through the material.

Excessive penetration into the face of the parent metal should be avoided. The penetration should be no greater than that required to obtain a sound bond between the deposited metal and the parent metal, because fusion of an excess quantity of the parent metal tends to carry slag into the weld metal.

Any good quality low carbon rod either coated or bare can be used with wrought iron, but in general the coated rods are used more extensivelly in current installations."

In the O-A welding section it suggests using a rod with the same tensile strength as the WI (27-30 Kpsi)"

There is also tables of suggestions for joint prep, spacing, number of passes, size of electrode, rate of travel, etc.

This book was published by the A. M. Byers Company who commercialized the last major method of making wrought iron--

Endsnip???-

?
More links
https://modernwelding.net/welding-wrought-iron/
https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/faq-can-wrought-iron-be-repaired-by-welding
https://www.realwroughtiron.com/about-wrought-iron/what-is-wrought-iron/

Turnbull and others can and will repair a presteel wrought iron blow up colt top strap, so it can be done.

One also has to decide one?s goal
Fix it so it looks good as a wall hanger
Fix it so it shoots
Repair it ?properly?
Museum quality restoration

For example, as an amateur weekend blacksmith at Historic Gibbs farm in St. Paul, on a budget of zero dollars, I often made accurate looking and functional cook stove lid lifters, tongs, and spatulas for the ladies in the kitchen out of free found barstock. I made a stronger than original good  looking replacement buggy step out of auto coil spring. And I did one museum quality ?authentic frontier repair? on a broken wrought iron piece using forge brazing and a wrought band.. . Cuz my hammer welding sucked then and still sucks now....

Hope this helps

Prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

Perfesser Marvelous   

An excellent dissertation and encapsulation of key points of pertinent information.  Simply Superb.

However, I still want a NEW, Open Top Merwin, Stainless Steel, Skull Krusher Grip, Two Barrel set, one 4 inch barrel and one 7 1/2 inch barrel, chambered in 44 Russian.  I really like to have it NEXT WEEK!!   

[Professor Marvel]

My Good Monsieur Fanning..

Please keep us posted, and post photos as much as possible!
We are all looking forward to your project!

Perfesser Marvelous   

An excellent dissertation and encapsulation of key points of pertinent information.  Simply Superb.

However, I still want a NEW, Open Top Merwin, Stainless Steel, Skull Krusher Grip, Two Barrel set, one 4 inch barrel and one 7 1/2 inch barrel, chambered in 44 Russian.  I really like to have it NEXT WEEK!!   

Ah, thanks for the vote of confidence, my Dear coffin ...

we all well know the difficulties of replicating a real M&H from the repop debacle, chronicled here in CAS City by yours truly ....

However, I have similar desires as yourself... and I have a diabolically cunning plan.
I have ... acquired ... basic dimensioned drawings of Colt?s Model P and the locations of the magic holes...

Now, the fun part is, these hole locations are identical to Colt model 1851 and 1860 Open Tops and clones.

This means any standard Pietta or Uberti Colt open top or model p part will work within these dimensions.

So, My thought is to use standardized readily available guts and cylinders, and manufacture a laminated frame (ie two or three plates braized together, for ease of milling the hand channel)
To make a visual replica of two open tops of my desire: a functional .36 Patterson, and a functional .45 open top M&H . For the M&H the complicated patent BS would be eliminated. My goal is an easily repaired, robust functioning copy that would be visually similar from 2 feet away. Purists would see the differences, such as substituting ?something else easier to make? than the insanely complex M&H rotating dovetail dovetail joint...

Rather like taking an engine-dead Jaguar car and dropping in a small block v8...
Cuz the jags engine carbons up at the drop of a Stetson.....

Yhs
Prof marvel

[Major 2]

Loved your analogy, Prof. Marvel.

actually did that in a way... Dropped a 305 bowtie in to an Austin Healey 3000.... parts were "an easy Donor V8" , easy obtainable conversion kit and the Austin.

I had way more issue trying to find a Merwin main spring, In fact that's how I acquired the Merwin ' broken main spring....  I never found one for sale ( "made of unobtanium, and reside in other folks' guns" ) 
Never found anyone willing to make one either 

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy
I think the Merwin barrel is steel.  Maybe Bessemer steel.  It is fairly hard compared to cold rolled and shows more indication
of carbon than cold rolled on a grinder test.  The break on the locking lug showed a rough texture and sharp edges.  I suspect that this material contains .3-.4% carbon.
Regards
Colt

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Funny you should ask.

I bought this pair of Merwin Hulberts about ten years ago or so from Bill English, who goes by the name of Happy Trails.






Hap had to rebuild the one at the top of the photo after this happened. Notice, not only is the cylinder split open, the top strap is missing too. No, I didn't do it, Bill did this long before he sold me the pair.






Here is what happened to the cylinder.







Sorry for all the glare, but here is what it looks like today.








Bill made a new top strap to replace the one that had disappeared.






If you look very carefully under the right light, a hint of the weld attaching the new top strap to the frame is visible.






The weld line is more visible on the underside of the new top strap.






Bill hand fitted the rotary joint where the top strap joins the frame.









Since the original cylinder had blown up, Bill made a new one.





You may have noticed the frame of the blown up Merwin is marked CALIBRE WINCHESTER 1873. That means the original caliber was 44-40. However, since Bill was making one new cylinder out of modern steel, he decided to make a second one for the other Merwin. The other Merwin is marked Russian Model, meaning it was chambered for 44 Russian. So to keep things simple, Bill chambered both new cylinders for 44 Russian. Yes, the cylinder for the blown up Merwin is about 1/8" longer than the other one, but they are both chambered for 44 Russian.

A word about Bill. He used to have a prototyping company that specialized in designing high speed manufacturing equipment. He had some draftsmen who worked for him with 3D CAD. So Bill had his draftsmen design up the parts in 3D Cad, so he could have them made. I suspect he had all the parts made up in his company, paying his workers out of his own pocket for the work. Just guessing here. However the hand fitting had to be done the old fashioned way with files. Once both guns were redone he sent them out and had them nickel plated, hence all the shine. Yes, they have been heavily reworked, witness the highly visible joint around the side plates, and some pitting that was not completely polished off.

I would not get too overly concerned about the welding, Bill used to have all his welding done by a local TIG welder who was very good. Bill would prepare the parts and give them to the TIG welder who would weld them up for him.

After he retired from his business Bill opened up his cowboy gunsmithing business, The Smith Shop, doing a lot of custom work for CAS shooters.

Bill closed his gunsmithing business a few years ago and is completely retired now, but he still sells parts.

Bill is a peach of a guy, and if you gave him a call I'm sure he would be happy to talk to you and answer any questions he can.

But don't ask him to repair your MH, he doesn't do that anymore.

Tell him Driftwood sent you.

http://thesmithshop.com/

[Professor Marvel]

Thanks Driftwood!

this should be archived!

yhs
prof marvel

[Colt Fanning]

Here is my repair to the MH barrel.  Figure 1 shows the barrel with the rear sight hump turned off and a .040 in retaining slot cut to hold the repair section.  It also shows the repair section as well as a drawing.  Figure 2 shows the repair section installed on the MH.  Figure 3 shows the setup to turn the slot in the J hook.  The repair section was made out of a grade 8 bolt.
Regards
Colt

[Professor Marvel]

My Good Monsieur Fanning

I appreciate your input more than you can imagine!
I am requesting this get stickied....

Yhs prof Marvel

[Colt Fanning]

Thanks,
I forgot to mention that the outside of the repair section now needs to be turned to the MH contours.
BTW how does one access the sticky section.
Regards
Colt