Why I'm not in CAS

[Oregon Bill]

I realize that for a newcomer to the site, this may not sit well. But I come by these thoughts honestly, and hope the rest of you will respect that. I've been an SASS member off and on, received the Chronicle, observed some matches, never actually shot them. (Here's a great departure point for critics.)
I know there is a lot of folks in SASS that are having the time of their lives, and I say, go for it. The local club has some great members, helpful and friendly when you go watch a match, and eager to bring new folks into the fold -- just wonderful human beings.
But ...
I see the same folks year after year in the same outfits ( and photo-sensitive glasses) shooting the same guns the same way and the same two or three guys always win and shoot like machines and the stages look virtually the same and sound virtually the same (ping, ping ,pang, pang, ping, ping ...) I also see a lot of non-historic firearms on the line firing non-authentic cartridges or loads( smokeless, APP, Pyro, etc.)
I dunno. I just wish there was something closer to the real deal -- maybe more like N-SSA, but adapted to the two or three post-civil war decades when black powder guns ruled.
As it is, you can use a Winchester 66 in .45 Colt with smokeless that never existed, but a Spencer in .56-50 with BP loads is out. You can't use a muzzle-loading double shotgun for much of anything, but the darned things were ubiquitous in the real Old West.
I guess you just can't have uniform competitions with all the variety that was encountered in  the real Old West.
Better shut up. Don't want to get kicked out. Just wish I could find a club or outfit where the real deal goes.

[Howdy Doody]

  Sorry that your exposure so far hasn't been your cup of tea. I know lots of folks that have been real active and then faded off and come back less than gung ho.
I think that is fine. I figure ( and probably wrongly) that you want someone to say the right thing and that might just get your interest up.
Well, this past weekend I wrote stages for Saturday and Sundays matches at my club. We have a lot of stages (12) that we can use. I actually moved stuff around on a couple of them after Saturdays shoot and used some of the props over again. I felt that a lot of newer folks would like to try their hand at how it was back about 8 years ago when I got into it, so I wrote in things like a theme. Out of the total 10 stages I had lines to say that went with the scenario and I even had a bonus stage where you tossed a rope over a calf. I used a texas star one day for rifle and the next day I moved it in for pistol. I really mixed it up, but I still had stages for gunfighters to let loose. I had poppers and I had a stage with pistol plates to knock down and then further out more plates for rifle. I tried my best to give a huge variety to the two days. I was so busy with my posse that I didn't see how other possies were liking it. There were top shooters there, but there were a lot of your average shooters and I wanted to make it fun for them and let them feel like it was something like how the game started out.
Well, I had a lot of folks tell me after the match that they had some fun and a really good time. I was glad to hear that. I hope they all did, but you can't please everyone 100%, which gets us back to you. If you don't feel it is a sport or game you want to play, then you don't have to. Your fun might just be watching the boards about CAS or listening to some folks talk about guns. That would be fine and you are not alone. There are some folks that have been on the boards and a member of SASS a long time and have never shot a match. No one I know would hold that against you, in fact there are some wives that like to come out and dress cowboy. They aren't interested in shooting, but they pitch in and keep score and that really helps a posse out and we are really appreciative to have them.
You take the number of guns out there and then look at the inflated number of say 65,000 SASS members and you see that there is just a very small percentage that are into CAS, but a lot of the folks that are, really enjoy it for their own reasons.
My reasons are that I really enjoy the company. I have made some of the best of friends that were fellow cowboy shooters and that is what keeps me in the game. I like to dress cowboy and I enjoy sending lead down range. I am not however very competitive. I honestly don't care about times and scores.
I felt like I was burning out about 5 years ago and I decided to try and shoot some BP. I loved it. It gave me a chance to experiment and it takes more prep and effort to shoot the stuff, but it proved out to be just the ticket. I like the feeling of shooting that smokey stuff and I found my niche.
I hope you will eventually try a match and see if something will work for you. I know some clubs do not have elaborate facilities, they do what they can, but maybe if you could check out another club or maybe an annual, you would find it less boring. If not then you are still welcome around here. Check in when you can. 

[Tricky Trina]

   I think (and hope) you'll see a whole heap load of replies to your post about "I'm there because of the people."  I know that's the reason for me!  There's not many other reasons that I will get out in the freezing cold or sweltering heat.  The people in this sport have to be the best I've EVER known.  And they aren't just people I shoot with or friends - these people are my family.  I care about them as much as my blood relatives - in some cases - more! 
   Once upon a time, I locked a fellow shooter in the outhouse (not on purpose!).  Rightfully, she was a little upset.  Now, she's going to be my maid-of-honor when MM and I get married.  The stupidest thing like that has brought us together.  I call her Mom and her wonderful husband Dad.  We break bread after shoots and have even stayed at their house.  We get kidded about it all the time - I even got a miniature outhouse as a gift once because of it all, but the best gift was the love that she and I have for each other.  Thanks Wanda! 
   I have gotten to meet a whole bunch of new people from around the country doing this - Marshal'ette, Marshal, Querida Kate, Scarlet Angel to just mane a few!  I look forward to seeing them again and again and meeting new people as time goes on.
   Lord knows I am not very competitive - but I admire and learn from those who are.  Most will share tips, guns and ammo!  How many sports can boast that the competitors do that?  I have had top shooters let me use their guns and ammo during side matches at major events and help me get faster.  I may never be number one at a match, but people like Twin make it so much fun to do and make you feel like number one.  Thanks Twin! 
   The best part of all, my fiance and I do this together.  We get to spend quality time together and I really believe it has brought us closer.  Not just at the shoots, but doing the reloading stuff at home too - I don't do as much as I should, but I'm going to try to do more.  I promise Missouri Marshal!  We're even going to have a SASS wedding early next year with all our pards who want to be there.  We plan to shoot four stages and get married after the last one.  How cool is that?  Shooting, being with your pards and getting hitched to the one you love!  I so look forward to that day.  Honeymoon? - Blue Ridge Round Up two day shoot, of course.  That's where he proposed to me last year.  Love ya !
   The shooting helps me keep up skills I need for my job and destresses me.  Being a deputy sheriff, I had lost a lot of my faith in humanity and the stress of working in the jail is pretty high.  Inmates aren't always the best society has to offer and you can't trust them.  This sport has revived my faith in the human race and I trust again (maybe not inmates though). 
   I could go on and on, but I think you get the drift - the best part of this sport is the people and nothing else about this sport could influence me to stay away!
   Looking forward to your posts and hope you enjoy yourself here in CAS City - a wonderful town with wonderful folks!
          Trina

[Mogorilla]

Hey Oregon,
 To an extent, I can agree.  Many of my "favorite" shoots consisted of a few friends, or just myself out in the boonies on private land.  We did our own stages, no time frame, and the only rewards were bragging rights.  Find some buddies, especially one that owns some land and have fun.  

[Camille Eonich]

I see the same folks year after year in the same outfits ( and photo-sensitive glasses) shooting the same guns the same way and the same two or three guys always win and shoot like machines and the stages look virtually the same and sound virtually the same (ping, ping ,pang, pang, ping, ping ...) I also see a lot of non-historic firearms on the line firing non-authentic cartridges or loads( smokeless, APP, Pyro, etc.)

One way to remedy this is to get to as many different shoots as you can.  We drive to VA, TN, SC all over the state of NC.  That way you get exposed to different styles of stage writing, different types of settings, different people with different personalities and didfferent types of matches.

Heck, if you like something about it but not all of it then get involved.     That way you actually get to exert some influence over things.  You can't do that just by posting on a message board what you don't like.  No offense meant there just stating a fact.


Welcome to CAS City.  Hope to see you posting here a lot, learning and taking more interest in CAS.  Oh and you might mosey down to the NCOWS forum.  They take a bit more care in the historical aspect of the game but I still don't think that you will find any muzzleloading anything used in a main match.  Can you imagine how long it would take for 30 people to shoot 6 stages with any kind of muzzle loader?

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Camille said it all, in my opinion. The only thing I can add is that from my experience, people move up in the standings as they continue shooting over a few years. You can't master this game in a few matches and not everyone has the same skills. You may want to try NCOWS as Camille suggested so you can have more fun around the correctness and experience of things more like they were in the post civil war period. Heck, those folks know how to get as period correct as possible within the frame of CAS.

[Oregon Bill]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, which in themselves speak for the quality of the folks involved in the sport and who post on this board. Tricky: I wish you and MM the best at your wedding and long after.
Howdy, Camille, you're right about getting involved in the stages. Maybe there's a way to write some life into them.
I guess what I was trying to say is that I wish there were some sort of hybrid  match or something that could safely be conducted outside a dirt berm enclosure that was less rule-specific and more "use your historically authentic tools to solve this problem as you see fit" and that the tools were authentic irons firing BP loads. This is where there would be a bigger blend of the skirmisher/re-enactor school of thought and less of the dress-up shooting game school -- not that there is thing wrong with that.
For a variety of reasons, safety and fire control at the top of the list, this is probably just wishful thinking, but maybe I need to see some serious side matches sometime.
Anyway, thanks again for your replies, as the non-judgmental tone shows you are good-hearted people here -- just the kind of folks I have encountered at CAS shoots. I just wish what I have seen was a little more my cup o'  sasparilla.

[Camille Eonich]

As I said before if you travel around a bit you find a lot of different things.  Have a look at some of the pictures here

http://www.kimandbarrymckenzie.com/Cowboy%20Action/LostRiverRendezvous2004/index.htm

And here....
http://www.kimandbarrymckenzie.com/Cowboy%20Action/Wartrace_Regulators_April_2_2004/index.htm

And here....
http://www.kimandbarrymckenzie.com/Cowboy%20Action/Lost%20River%20Jan%2031%202004/index.htm

And here...
http://www.kimandbarrymckenzie.com/Cowboy%20Action/The%20town%20of%20Lost%20River/index.htm



Not your typical berm shooting.  There's a lot of places like this but you have to get a bit off the beaten path to find them.  Also if you look through the pictures on these sites you will see that there are quite a few black powder shooters, several cap and ball shooters etc.

No, we're not actually shooting at each other but that would involve shooting blanks and I prefer to shoot real bullets.  Even with blanks though I wouldn't want someone pointing a gun at me.  I don't know how the re-enactors stand it.


I'm a bit lost on the part about not wanting to dress up though.  NCOWs, SASS, WASA, Western 3 gun, re-inacting all have dress requirements with reinacting being the strictest of them all.  Heck even the buffalo shoots have some kind of dress requirements. 

[Camille Eonich]

Oh yeah...you might check out some of the Rendezvous sites too.  With what you said about the problem solving and less shooting then that may be exactly what you are looking for.


http://www.1838rendezvous.com/

http://www.medicineriver.com/

[Stump Water]

Howdy Bill.  Welcome to CAS City.

If you haven't already, ya might want ta mosey over to "The Barracks" forum and check out the folks in The Grand Army of the Frontier.  I seem to recall some conversation about their annual GAF Muster.  I believe their shooting scenarios are more "skirmish-like".  Might be the niche you're looking for.


Check out this thread for some pics of this year's GAF Muster ... http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=5455.0

[Arcey]

Kindah enjoy it like it is but I understand the frustration some could suffer having to shoot with people who don't know the difference between a rifle and a carbine.

I'm quite content with what I'm doing.  And, the fine work the Marshal 'n M'ette have done in givin' us a forum to keep in touch with folks of a like mind,  The friends we've made.

OB, hope ya find somethin' that meets your standards.  Maybe that'll lead ya to a board of like minded folks as well.

Stay healthy...........

..

[Oregon Bill]

Camille: I don't have a beef with dressing authentically for the period, but as much as I loved Roy Rogers when I was a kid (saw him and Dale  in person at the Oregon State Centennial in 1959), I think a lot of the cowpersons I see at the matches would probably get beat up or at least laughed at if they wore their outfits into a real cowtown bar circa 1870.
Don't get me wrong: I know all the pards and "pardettes" are having a ball in their outfits, and I don't begrudge them at all as having fun is the bottom line in this avocation.
But just as in the old rendezvous circuit there was usually an area reserved for the true hard core, it would be interesting to attend  an affair where the clothes and weapons were right out of the pictures, right down to the worn clothes and the shapeless hats.

[Trap]

  O. B.
  I believe you need to look into NCOWS. The problems you mentioned are mostly nonexistant in NCOWS. And there is a guy who is interested in starting an OR. posse.
                                                   
             jt

[Oregon Bill]

Trap: Thanks. I have been prowling around this Web site, and the NCOWS and GAF groups sound more up my alley. The essays on the three-stages of NCOWS on their site are excellent. I live in a part of Oregon that's rich with history, from the ancient cultures of our native peoples to the first Hudsons Bay trapping parties to the ambush of Jed Smith's explorers to the discovery of gold in 1851, to the Rogue Indian Wars of the 1850s to the Modoc War of 1873. I think maybe my persona lies somewhere along the lines of not looking out of place in the Lava Beds that cold winter of '72-73, ducking shots from Captain Jack's Modoc marksmen, either as RA or as a civilian scout  or militiaman, returning occasional fire with my Spencer.

And by the way, nothing but praise for these CAS City forums. So much more information than some other sites.

[Marshal Halloway]

Howdy Oregon Bill,

You have obviously come to a point that some end up doing after being involved in the sport for some time.

SASS provides an authenticity and B-Western hand in hand approach that most shooters find appealing. This together with some good promotion have made SASS and the sport what it is today.

However, we all have our preferences and we all don't always like the changes being made or the progress, good or bad.

Many SASS members find that a small local shoot is far better than the now complex and "cattle through the shoots" big annual events. The popularity make it this way. Economy is also part of the game and for many of the organizers, it is no longer a hobby event, it is a professional entertainment package with many challenges.

What we will see more of in the future is that small groups of special interest will come to the scene and provide an alternative. This go for both local clubs and organizations. GAF is one that is already mentioned in this thread.

NCOWS has been an alternative to SASS for about 11 years and their intention is not to compete with SASS, but to provide an alternative for those who seek a more genuine authentic approach to the sport and related activities. They do provide competitive activities as SASS does, but they offer people who love history of the old west a better platform for research and the sharing and understanding about the history of the American West in the 19th century.

As many have stated above, you might find NCOWS a good alternative or an addition to your SASS participation. Perhaps, when you have the alternatives at hand, you will once again find SASS appealing and as one of the activities you want to be involved in. There are many that has gone the same route as you have just started on and ending up favoring both organizations.

Again, welcome to Cas City where shooters from all organizations and fields of interest are welcome to stay, share and learn.

[DarkBlack]

I can relate.

I'm a person with conservative views in an increasingly liberal world. That's often put me "at odds" with my peers, and at times even comrades.

I've adopted the attitude that I have to do what makes me feel right inside, have valid reasons for my actions, be personally responsible, and willing to defend, at the drop of a hat, someone's right to be different from me. I've tried to apply this simple philosophy to most aspect of my humble existence.

As it relates to CAS, I shoot .45LC, because it's period accurate. I shoot Colt clones (Uberti Millennuims) because it's the closest thing I can afford to what would have been in use then. For the period were considering (pre-1900) a break action shotgun is totally cool, but I choose to shoot 12ga. even though the recoil is much greater than the same gun in 20ga. because "I feel" it's closer to what would have been. Each of these things make me a little less competitive with the "gamers" & their .38 "race guns", but that's OK.

I've often wondered if we'll see a "stock" class evolve in the SASS rules to accomodate the new shooter & the poor white boys of the world would have an opportunity to bask in the glow of our peer's admiration for being the fastest at being slow.

I don't think a fella with a stock gun, or for that matter an iron with less than $1500 invested in it is going to be competitive in this sport. But I'm going to have fun bettering my time versus my time and let let gamers play.

In conclusion, I'm reminded of the words given to Raquel Welch By Robert Culp in Hannie Caulder . . . "First comes right, then comes fast."

Take Care,

[Coop Trawlaine]

Sounds good to me, Black.

[Stump Water]

I choose to shoot 12ga. even though the recoil is much greater than the same gun in 20ga. because

Well now.... that just ain't true.   

[PWDFR POSSE]

Well, here's my .02 on this whole matter of CAS & SASS.  I love shootin' my guns & I love the old west.  I have been an old west re-enactor for years & even dabbled a time or two doin' the civil war thing.  I have tried my hand a BP & found it very exciting.  I hate the clean up afterwards but, ya gotta love that big cloud of smoke!  

I think SASS just plain has too many rules & takes the fun out of it for a lot of folks.  It ain't no secret I feel that way, I have been sayin' it for quite some time now!  Rules are good because we need to make safety our number one goal but c'mon... the rules are just a bit much at SASS.  Cain't shoot this or cain't shoot that, cain't have this type of load or that type of powder... dang!  Lighten up!  

Clothing?  I think if it's cowboy, wear it!  Does it really matter if it's period correct or Hollywood?  Everyone has their own tastes and as long as they wear cowboy, who cares what ya wear?  I like both!  I like the period correct (if infact it is actually period correct) & I like the Hollywood look!  It's all about bein' a cowboy, shootin' yer' guns, meetin' great folks and... havin' one Hell of a time!  

Guns?  As long as it looks cowboy & is a safe weapon... who cares what you shoot where?  And another thing!  Why does everyone load five rounds into a six-shooter?  Who came up with that idea?  Safe is safe!  Number of rounds in your gun got nothin' to do with it!  Why don't we all just buy five-shooters?  Why? Cuz then they'll change the rules & only allow ya to load four!  

Too many rules!  Too many hands in the pot!  Lets all just have fun doin' what it is we love doin' and find out where it is we can do it!  If they don't do it there, go somewhere else!

Many folks say Badlands... how do you know if you ain't never been to an actual shoot & shot?  I say this!  The rules put a crimp in my style before I can even get my rig buckled & my guns loaded!  I know gun safety!  I know how & where to shoot!  I know what I'm doin'!  I don't like the rules!  So, I'd rather take my ball & go home!  

Been to plenty of shoots & met some real nice folks.  No one has ever been rude, insulting, nasty, unkind, etc...  Been to EOT twice now!  Met some great folks there as well!  Too many rules!  Don't like bein' held back by rules!  Also as someone mentioned earlier, why would I want to shoot in a match where the same folks win all the time?  That ain't no fun!  

When you got someone who got more money than God & buys the finest equipment out there, has it hot-rodded & slicked up, and you got a pair of $350 each EMF's cuz that's all ya can afford... how is that competetion?  

Yep!  Just my .02 on the matter & I still enjoy shootin' out at the range with a few friends, Itty Bitty, my bunch of guns & six rounds in each six-shooter when I step up on the line!  I ain't braggin' here folks neither when I tell ya... I don't miss that often!  

Thanks for the floor!  Ya'll be safe out there & have fun!  

[Camille Eonich]

Well...it shore ain't for everybody and I can respect that.  I have a lot of fun doing it though and I'm real glad that I found CAS before I got any older.

I really look forward to getting all my hugs from all the cowboys and cowgirls before every match and I look forward to harrassing my competition and having them harass me back.  I also look forward to getting ragged by my pards when I really screw up and I love them pats on the back when I blow a stage away.  I've learned a lot from some of the people that I shoot with, not just about CAS but about compassion, humility, generosity and friendships.


I wouldn't trade a minute or a dollar of what I have invested in CAS.