What size bore are Uberti .44-40 revolver clones?

[Doug.38PR]

.429 like most rifles nowdays or .429?

More to the point:  would a .44-40 pistol/rifle combo be practical today for common ammo?    For now I just have a new uberti rifle in .44-40 and reload with .427 hardcast bullets.   I don't plan on changing.  See no need to go up to .429 as long as gun shoots well since my dies handle it well

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

  I have four Uberti 44-40's; three revolvers and an 1866 Sporting Rifle. The rifle and the oldest revolver were built in the '90's. I shoot .430" cast bullets in all of them. The cylinder throats of the oldest revolver actually measure .432".

  I haven't the slightest idea regarding factory ammo as I've never bought a single round of 44-40 factory ammunition.

CHT

[Coffinmaker]

Have I ever mentioned I hate the term "Clones??"  Think I have once or six.  Not to beat up on ya Doug, it's just that the foreign copies are REPLICANTS.  Clones would be "PERFECT."  THEY AINT.  But anyway ..........

New manufacture Replicants of yesteryear sport a .429 bore.  That is near universal.  So, if your shooting .427 bullets, your shooting undersize bullets and may (or man not) suffer some accuracy problems.

The answer to the rest of your question is YES.  It is quite appropriate to match new manufacture 44-40 Rifles with 44-40 chambered handguns.  My only cautionary note is to insure the throat diameter of your chosen handguns.  If you choice is Ruger (Barf) the cylinder throats WILL be undersize.

[Doug.38PR]

Have I ever mentioned I hate the term "Clones??"  Think I have once or six.  Not to beat up on ya Doug, it's just that the foreign copies are REPLICANTS.  Clones would be "PERFECT."  THEY AINT.  But anyway ..........

New manufacture Replicants of yesteryear sport a .429 bore.  That is near universal.  So, if your shooting .427 bullets, your shooting undersize bullets and may (or man not) suffer some accuracy problems.

The answer to the rest of your question is YES.  It is quite appropriate to match new manufacture 44-40 Rifles with 44-40 chambered handguns.  My only cautionary note is to insure the throat diameter of your chosen handguns.  If you choice is Ruger (Barf) the cylinder throats WILL be undersize.

I'm just calling them what the title of this forum says.  I call the italian versions reproductions.

I know what you mean about Rugers.   They are good knock down drag down work horses...but the cylinder needs to be reamed and the front sight filed down  as is the case with my .45 Colt Vaquero.  Plus I want to install a wollf spring kit that makes it operate more like a colt with a lighter hammer and half cock position

[Coffinmaker]

Hi Doug   

I'm really not pickin on ya.  Every now and again I can't resist giving anybody and everybody a hard time about the term "Clone."  Some half baked magazine scribe (again) coined the term "Clone" without regard to to actual truth in advertising.  Thereafter, everybody who wanted to sound like they knew what they were talking about, picked up the term and spread it around like warm butter.  It's been an annoyance ever since.  So, please take no offense.  None meant.  I just can't stand the miss-use of the term, when it's obviously incorrect and in some cases meant in a derogatory manner (not that you didi that).

Sooner than later, I'll pick on somebody else for calling reproductions something other than reproductions.  I personally favor "Replicant."  Which title I stole from the movie "Blade Runner."

[Doug.38PR]

Hi Doug   

I'm really not pickin on ya.  Every now and again I can't resist giving anybody and everybody a hard time about the term "Clone."  Some half baked magazine scribe (again) coined the term "Clone" without regard to to actual truth in advertising.  Thereafter, everybody who wanted to sound like they knew what they were talking about, picked up the term and spread it around like warm butter.  It's been an annoyance ever since.  So, please take no offense.  None meant.  I just can't stand the miss-use of the term, when it's obviously incorrect and in some cases meant in a derogatory manner (not that you didi that).

Sooner than later, I'll pick on somebody else for calling reproductions something other than reproductions.  I personally favor "Replicant."  Which title I stole from the movie "Blade Runner."

Nah!  No offense taken.   Personally I roll my eyes whenever I hear some gun store "expert" repeat over and over "a revolver is not a pistol.  A semi auto is a pistol."   This notion has spread all over the internet and accepted as fact by most.
The word pistol is far older than when the semi auto was invented and used in reference single shot pistols, horse pistols, revolving pistol and seni automatic pistol.    And, of course, the Spanish word "pistola". 

[Abilene]

Nah!  No offense taken.   Personally I roll my eyes whenever I hear some gun store "expert" repeat over and over "a revolver is not a pistol.  A semi auto is a pistol."   This notion has spread all over the internet and accepted as fact by most.
The word pistol is far older than when the semi auto was invented and used in reference single shot pistols, horse pistols, revolving pistol and seni automatic pistol.    And, of course, the Spanish word "pistola". 

Well, us cowboys got more sense than most.  I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here the stage instructions always include: "...two pistols with 5 rounds each holstered..."  and "...with your first pistol..."  and "...with your second pistol..." (even though that is interpreted by gunfighters as "first 5 shots" and "second 5 shots").  And we have all seen old Colt ads from the day that call it a pistol.  No, I don't call my Python a pistol.  But I could. 

And isn't gun store expert an oxymoron?  Heehee, but you did put "expert" in quotes.

And lastly, I like to say "clone" as often as possible just to make Coffinmaker squirm. 

Back to the original question, Doug, I used to always load .429 bullets for my two 44-40 "pistols" and '73 carbine.  But having to avoid certain brands of brass due to thicker necks made me later try .427 and while I have no idea of the long range accuracy (especially compared to the .429) it has been just fine for CAS which is my only purpose for those guns.  No leading problems, either.  Of course, I shoot BP more often than smokeless in that caliber, so that probably cleans out any lead that might have gotten there from smokeless.

[Doug.38PR]

Well, us cowboys got more sense than most.  I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here the stage instructions always include: "...two pistols with 5 rounds each holstered..."  and "...with your first pistol..."  and "...with your second pistol..." (even though that is interpreted by gunfighters as "first 5 shots" and "second 5 shots").  And we have all seen old Colt ads from the day that call it a pistol.  No, I don't call my Python a pistol.  But I could. 

And isn't gun store expert an oxymoron?  Heehee, but you did put "expert" in quotes.

And lastly, I like to say "clone" as often as possible just to make Coffinmaker squirm. 

Back to the original question, Doug, I used to always load .429 bullets for my two 44-40 "pistols" and '73 carbine.  But having to avoid certain brands of brass due to thicker necks made me later try .427 and while I have no idea of the long range accuracy (especially compared to the .429) it has been just fine for CAS which is my only purpose for those guns.  No leading problems, either.  Of course, I shoot BP more often than smokeless in that caliber, so that probably cleans out any lead that might have gotten there from smokeless.

Right.  I try to stick with .427 but am willing to go up to .428.  I?ve heard of complcations in reloading .429 with brass and dies.  Rather not get into it.   If it isn?t broken, don?t fix it.

[Professor Marvel]

And lastly, I like to say "clone" as often as possible just to make Coffinmaker squirm. 

Ah My Dear Abilene -

you know you'll be spending some time in Purgatory for that, dontcha?
Not much, just enough Purgatory time to pay for the tiny bad karma of making your friends squirm... LOL

oh look, it doesn't seem to be such a bad town to be in:







And Yes, Doug, most if not all modern 44-40's use .429 barrels. It really does make life simpler for the manufacturors :-)
But , as always, "It Depends" ? and it always pays to measure things yourself 

And yes, I am posting drivel, JUST BECAUSE THE FORUM IS BACK!

yhs
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

Have I ever mentioned I hate the term "Clones??"  Think I have once or six.  Not to beat up on ya Doug, it's just that the foreign copies are REPLICANTS.  Clones would be "PERFECT."  THEY AINT.  But anyway ..........

AH My Good Coffin -

just for you, I will write a program that searches the web and replaces every instance of the word CLONE with  REPLICANTS .
should only take 15 or 20 years...

yhs
prof posting cuz CAS CITY is back 

[LonesomePigeon]

Being a novice at casting and reloading I have no advice but I do have some .44-40 specs from the Dixie Gun Works catalog.

Uberti Henry, Uberti Model 1866, Uberti Model 1873 and Uberti Burgess Rifle  all have .424" lands & .432" grooves. Twist rate is 1:21"

Pedersoli Lightning Rifle has .421" lands & .429" grooves. The twist rate is 1:36".

Uberti Flattop Target, Cattleman,Bisley, 1875 Remington and 1890 Remington revolvers all have .421" lands & .429" grooves. Twist rate 1:20".

There is no specs available on the .44-40 Uberti Schofield.

For added info the Uberti Cattleman .44 Special has the same bore size as .44-40 except the rifling is deeper, with .417" lands & .429" grooves. Twist rate 1:20".

There are no specs listed on throat size for any of the revolvers.

[Cliff Fendley]

Being a novice at casting and reloading I have no advice but I do have some .44-40 specs from the Dixie Gun Works catalog.

Uberti Henry, Uberti Model 1866, Uberti Model 1873 and Uberti Burgess Rifle  all have .424" lands & .432" grooves. Twist rate is 1:21"

Pedersoli Lightning Rifle has .421" lands & .429" grooves. The twist rate is 1:36".

Uberti Flattop Target, Cattleman,Bisley, 1875 Remington and 1890 Remington revolvers all have .421" lands & .429" grooves. Twist rate 1:20".

There is no specs available on the .44-40 Uberti Schofield.

For added info the Uberti Cattleman .44 Special has the same bore size as .44-40 except the rifling is deeper, with .417" lands & .429" grooves. Twist rate 1:20".

There are no specs listed on throat size for any of the revolvers.

I know this is forum is about the pistols and it doesn't really matter in them but in a response to the above information.

Uberti in their attempt to standardize their tooling have ruined their 44-40 rifles for best accuracy. Older import rifles and original Winchesters had 1:36 twist and will outshoot current production Uberti rifles from my personal experience.

My best shooting uberti rifle is an older Navy Arms Henry that has the slower rate of twist. It or any of my original 73 Winchesters with a decent bore left will outshoot any of the new Ubertis I've tried.

If anyone knows any trick to get the new fast twist Ubertis so shoot best, bullet/load combo I'm open to suggestions. I only shoot black powder so I also believe the shallow rifling in the new guns is part to blame also.

I'm not talking CAS distances or even 50 yards, I'm talking when you stretch them out to 100 yards out to around 250 yards the new guns groups open up wildly compared to the older ones.

As I said not sure it even matters in the pistols and I don't even know what the twist was in older 44-40 pistols.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

I know this is forum is about the pistols and it doesn't really matter in them but in a response to the above information.

Uberti in their attempt to standardize their tooling have ruined their 44-40 rifles for best accuracy. Older import rifles and original Winchesters had 1:36 twist and will outshoot current production Uberti rifles from my personal experience.

My best shooting uberti rifle is an older Navy Arms Henry that has the slower rate of twist. It or any of my original 73 Winchesters with a decent bore left will outshoot any of the new Ubertis I've tried.

If anyone knows any trick to get the new fast twist Ubertis so shoot best, bullet/load combo I'm open to suggestions. I only shoot black powder so I also believe the shallow rifling in the new guns is part to blame also.

I'm not talking CAS distances or even 50 yards, I'm talking when you stretch them out to 100 yards out to around 250 yards the new guns groups open up wildly compared to the older ones.

As I said not sure it even matters in the pistols and I don't even know what the twist was in older 44-40 pistols.

  When did Uberti change the twist? I have a '90's production 1866 Sporting Rifle in 44-40. I checked the twist and if I remember correctly it is 1-20". I shoot it mainly at 200 yds simply because I have a steel gong at that range. I'm somewhat new to these rifles but found this one surprisingly accurate, black powder or smokeless, doesn't matter, especially considering the tiny rear ladder sight-





Even out to 300 it wasn't too bad-



CHT

   

[Cliff Fendley]

Don't know when they changed it, my newest with the slower twist was made in the early 80's if I recall.

[Oregon Bill]

Reading the Uberti Model 1873 specs at Dixie Gun Works, the ones in .44 WCF are described as six-groove, 1:36 twist, .424 lands and cut-rifled grooves .004 deep.

[Coffinmaker]

Um, Ah, Well ..... That works out to a .429 bore ...... Yes??  Which would call for a .430 projectile or perhaps a .4295 projectile.  Or .... What most of us have been saying, the current crop of Uberti 44-40 are 429/430 bore?? 

Common understanding is the projectile should FILL the land diameter.  That serves to completely stabilize the projectile as well as reduce/eliminate leading/Key holes.

[Bryan Austin]

All of my Uberti 44-40's are .429

I just loaded and shot Acme hard cast 200gr .427s the other day @ 265 yards with great accuracy with open buckhorn sights in my Marlin 1894CB which is also .429

I do not recommend these high velocity loads in the Winchester 73' or Colt clone revolvers other than larger magnum framed SAA.


As far as using the same ammo in both rifle and revolver.....this has been an issue and created topics ever since smokeless powder arrived on the scene back in 1894.

I don't always agree with some of what Sharpe writes but this I must agree.....to an extent:
"The 44-40 is capable of excellent performance when loaded properly for handgun use. If, however, if one endeavors to combine loading for both handgun and rifle in this caliber, he is destined to meet with only mediocre success"

He continues to say that if success is to be had, a short barrel must burn all of the powder if satisfactory results are to be achieved. I may be missing his reasoning of what success is but I tend to disagree with the success part since have had great success in my loads using Reloder 7 which I doubt existed back then.

Some of my loads group 4" @ 100 yards in rifle and 4" @ 25 yards in revolver with near 1,300fps in rifle and 900fps in magnum frame revolver but it is hard to find such a load.

There is more to it than this but that's the best I can explain it.

[Coffinmaker]

Often, when there is compromise, there are mediocre results.  However, for the game we play, which does not involve shooting at targets 250+ yards away (least wise I don't think it does).  We only need accuracy out to about a max of 15 or so yards.  If you compromise to reload for "one" gun and also shoot the same reload in another, and get minute of pie plate at 15 yards, your gold.

I load .45 and I load .45 in Cowboy 45 Special cases.  The load I shoot is perfect for Handgun.  Not so Bueno for Rifle.  It works for both however, for CAS.  No worries.

[Bryan Austin]

Often, when there is compromise, there are mediocre results.  However, for the game we play, which does not involve shooting at targets 250+ yards away (least wise I don't think it does).  We only need accuracy out to about a max of 15 or so yards.  If you compromise to reload for "one" gun and also shoot the same reload in another, and get minute of pie plate at 15 yards, your gold.

I load .45 and I load .45 in Cowboy 45 Special cases.  The load I shoot is perfect for Handgun.  Not so Bueno for Rifle.  It works for both however, for CAS.  No worries.

By all means, shooting the same loads 15 yards with lightly loaded ammo is perfectly fine for both rifle and revolver

[russ1943]

I bought my 1st 44-40 Navy Arms carbine in 1971, it was accurate with W-W 200 JSP ammo out to 125 yards. I lent it to a friend and killed a dear at that range, 2 shorts an inch a part pretty good for a guy with no hunting experience and sighted in the rifle that morning with 3 shorts. I think the only thing he short before was 22LR. That ammo was .427, and seems to be the best for that rifle. The Hager SAA in 44-40 got that around 1972-73 was also accurate with that ammo. The guns were not accurate with reloads using .429, JHP bullets 8 gains unique, not so good. One problem W-W the cases Winchester-Western are vary thin at end and would bulge the cases and some times split them. Remington cases were some times to thick and wouldn't chamber in the guns, especially in the Navy Arms 1875, SAA bought in 1975. No wonder some reloads don't do well with cast .427  lead bullet, in the newer guns.

When Ruger can out with the Vaquero's they offered it in 44-40, and 44mag and a dual cylinder, that never came about since bore was .430 and the 44-40 shot all over the place. They never sold the combo, you couldn't even order the 44-40 cylinder from them or Numrich, even though is was listed in Numrich's catalog for years.

Where can it be found Uberti changed things in the 44-40 caliber.  This was one of the original calibers they started with. 44-40, 38 Spec, 44 Spec, with Navy Arms as the sole importer, the first rifles were only in 44-40.