Chiappa 56-50 Spencer

[PJ Hardtack]

I have been sent pics of the Spencer carbine I ordered.

The breechblock pin screw is visible with the action closed. Well, half of it, anyway.

I have been advised by those that know Spencers that this means the breechblock is not fully into battery and will appear to be low when viewed from the top.
I have also been told that the cure for this is to bend the lever to permit more upward travel. I am not intimidated by the prospect of this as I have had the experience of re-bending the lever of a Shiloh '74 which had been abused during a hard extraction.

This my chance to reject the rifle but I am reluctant to do so as it was quite a task to locate it in the first place. I also have considerable investment in dies, brass and bullet mould, so I'd like to go ahead with the project.

Comments ... opinions ...   

[El Supremo]

Hi, PJ:

Based upon friends recently sharing photo's of four Armisport 56-50 Spencers ranging in age from 2005 through 2014, all with 40% of the bottom block screw visible and the front face of upper block being as much as 1/8" below the corresponding top edge of the receiver cutout, I am now ok with your wish to accept delivery because only cycling and firing pin centering can be tested by you. 
The screw visibility could be from a bit less lower receiver projection, but the top block would not be.

With such a span of years, if these two things created widespread functioning issues, there would be lots of frustration history on our Forum. One of the four needed its lever bent slightly to better center the firing pin.

Originals do not present either issue, so why the repro A'sports DO is not known

Oldest two have 22" twists and other two through 2014 have 24" twists. 
I do not know WHY the twist was changed 2 inches to 24".  The 24" twist shoots well, per reports.

The most recent was a FIFTH one, SN 16E04495 observed by me in May, 2018 at Taylor's in Winchester, VA. 
That one got me thinking about block/firing pin centering.  It had 50% of the lower block screw showing and 1/8" of the block FACE forward top edge below the corresponding top front of the receiver cutout. It was not test cycled. I sent you photo's of it.

You have new STARLINE cases and Rapine 350T bullets that will make functional dummy rounds that have worked WELL in both Armisports and Romano's.  OAL for those test rounds should NOMINALLY be 1.500".
ROMANO taught me to test cycle with dummies having OAL variations so minor ones would still be ok.
His guns accept a reasonable range of OAL's between 1.490" and 1.550"! 
This sort of OAL difference arises from repeated cycling. Noses become bruised and measuring OAL is iffy.

Test the firing pin centering via a lead or hard wax plug in the primer pocket of an EMPTY single loaded case so it can be removed and the case reused.

When cycling DUMMY rounds please remember that the Spencer lever technique is somewhat different from Winchesters.  AND BEWARE THAT IF LOADED ROUNDS ARE BEING CYCLE TESTED OR CYCLED DURING SHOOTING ON THE LINE, STUTTERING BETWEEN LEVER STROKES REARWARD DURING EXTRACTION AND THEN FORWARD DURING FEEDING CAN CAUSE A LOADED ROUND'S PRIMER TO JAM AGAINST THE CARTRIDGE FEED GUIDE TIP!  KABOOM!

NEVER CYCLE LOADED ROUNDS EXCEPT OUTDOORS WITH THE MUZZLE POINTED SAFELY.  NO FOOLING!

For Spencers, try to avoid distinct hesitation at the beginning of the upward stroke and expect a bit of balky resistance as you CONTINUOUSLY lift the lever with AUTHORITY and feed the dummy ctg. SAME FOR LOADED ROUNDS AFTER YOU LEARN THE LEVER TECHNIQUE.

DO NOT TEST CYCLING WITH SLOW A MOVEMENT!  IT ALMOST ALWAYS LEADS TO JAMS.

Most here report some bullet nose damage from cycling tests.  Over time, my dummy noses appear rat-chewed, but they cycle and SHOOT fine.  Nose damage during firing should amount to ONE pass worth, so I ignore it.
Harder alloy bullets reduce it, but that can change accuracy.  I have greased noses, but not seen much if any improvement in cycling.  Have changed bullet nose ogive from curve to flat angle to better match the profile of an original round with no improvement, either. Likewise DUMMY, UNLOADED TEST ROUNDS WITH THE SAME POINTY BULLET AS IN ORIGINALS DID NOT CYCLE BETTER. The flat nose bullet will work ok.

After YEARS of erratic cycling and endless changes to OAL, ogive, alloy, crimp, block coil spring, ctg feed guide springs and lever technique, I finally FOUND that if the cartridge feed guide spring was imparting the correct downward tension and round OAL was ok, that the lever screw TIGHTNESS was the culprit! 
Watch that the lever screw is not over tight.
Now, I just barely snug it into contact with one extra "clock hour" (Marine way) turning after initial contact.
Too much tightness, NOT EVEN TO THE POINT OF BEING FELT, can still impede cycling rhythm. 
Start barely tight and increase torque to find where cycling is impaired.  Lube also matters

Please keep us posted and stay warm.  Thanks.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[El Supremo]

Hello:

Good morning in canukistan.  Warm enough for the birds to fly?  Haha.

Over last night and early this AM, I contacted friends and made lots of changes to the above post.  Sorry.

As an aside, it is noteworthy that some experienced shooter friends of mine with NEW A'sport Spencers have NOT even test cycled or fired them. They are surprised at current prices, too.
So am not able to glean more helpful info.  Guess safe queens abound. I am one of those hoarders!

Perhaps others here can share what they found about the lower block screw and top block height locations that might involve firing pin centering.  Thanks.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[PJ Hardtack]

Thanks once again for the input.

I think I'll accept the carbine and work with it's issues, whatever they might be. The Spencer is an archaic design which is part of their appeal. I ceased to be a competitive 'race gunner' a long time ago and I'm into CAS now for the sheer fun of it.

As long as it functions and gives 'minute-of-steel-target' out to 50m, I'll be happy. 100m would be better, of course.

Did you get the pics of that Canadian's Sharps and Spencer carbines? You and he have much in common. I have another Canadian pal very much into historical arms which he shoots at GAF events in Indiana.

[El Supremo]

Thanks, PJ:

Haven't seen the photo's. You can please text to my phone or email, but lemme know when sent and I will report.

One important UPDATE to that lengthy post above:

Heard more from a Spencer shooting friend.  He shared that one of his A'sport Spencers that presents the visible screw and lower top block relationships DID produce erratic miss-fires and that IS WHY he bent the lever.  

He told me this in person last year when I bought a Romano from him, but his subsequent emails did not relate that issue until I politely re-inquired this AM.  He said the slight bending of the lever solved the intermittent miss-fires, BUT from the photo he sent last night, the amount of bending did NOT appear to change the amount of  cross-screw presentation.

Best to test.  
Again he said before bending, the pin strike was BARELY off-center so some fired first time and some not.

Thanks,

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[PJ Hardtack]

Kevin

My wife has returned from the coast so I have the bullets and brass you sent me. Many thanks! I am indebted to you, Sir ....

Your bullets are shorter than the design of the Accurate 51-350S but have a wider grease groove. The Accurate next widest and the Rapine the smallest.

Your bullets mike - .776, the Rapine .790 and the Accurate .729 in length. Diameters are pretty much the same at .512 - .513. Yours are unsized, the Rapine sized/lubed and for the Accurate I miked the mould. Things will change when the bullets are all sized/lubed.

It will be interesting to see which perform the best and are the most accurate in my Spencer. Which ever do not will make fodder for my 50-70s.

BTW - the Spencer is being shipped today and the dealer is not charging for shipping.

[PJ Hardtack]

I have seen many rifles over the years with off-centre primer strikes and ignition was just fine. I wonder why it would cause problems in a Spencer?

The pics I was referring to were emailed last Sunday. Very interesting. The owner is very much into the history of Sharps and Spencers, a collector rather than a shooter. I can forward his email if you wish, if I did not along with the pics.

Thanks, PJ:

Haven't seen the photo's. You can please text to my phone or email, but lemme know when sent and I will report.

One important UPDATE to that lengthy post above:

Heard more from a friend.  He clearly indicated now that one of his A'sport Spencers that presents the visible screw and lower top block relationships DID produce erratic miss-fires and that IS WHY he bent the lever.  

He told me this in person last year when I bought a Romano from him, but his subsequent emails did not relate that issue until I politely re-inquired this AM.  He said the slight bending of the lever solved the intermittent miss-fires, BUT from the photo he sent last night, the amount of bending did NOT remove the cross-screw being still visible.

Best to test.  
Again he said before bending, the pin strike was BARELY off-center so some fired first time and some not.

Thanks,

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Coal Creek Griff]

For reference, here are some photos of my Armi Sport/Chiappa 2009 production carbine.  The head of the screw is barely visible and the upper breech block is well above the receiver.  I haven't taken the time to measure how far above, but hopefully the photos illustrate it well enough.  I have not had issues with misfires.  Hopefully this helps.

CC Griff

[Coal Creek Griff]

Here's the photo of the breech block protrusion.

CC Griff

[PJ Hardtack]

Very nice colours in the receiver!  Mine is not so nice, but it's mine! I hope it patinates well.

[El Supremo]

Hello, Coal Creek and PJ:

Thanks for the photo's of Coal Creek's 2009 Spencer.

On it, the amount of visible screw is less than on the five I surveyed and correspondingly, the amount of visible upper block on it is more than on them.  

It is interesting to me that my friend had one of those that showed half the screw and it had the erratic ignition issue that bending the lever eliminated.  Maybe it IS that simple IF issues.  Hope so.

I sent that Rapine bullet because it works so well in many at 1.500".  
It will be a good reference dummy round.  Thanks again.  

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[PJ Hardtack]

I note the bullets you sent me are very hard, hard to mark with a thumb nail. Do they obturate with BP?

I sent that Rapine bullet because it works so well in many at 1.500".  
It will be a good reference dummy round.  Thanks again.  

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[El Supremo]

Hello, PJ:

Yep, hard.  Got them from another SSS member with other 56-50 stuff.  Shot well for him.
Want to recall that they are a wheel weight alloy.

At the least, at 1.500" OAL, they have been good cycle testers.  
That, rather than accuracy test, was why I sent them.
I don't recall that you have the Rapine 350T mould, and I don't either.  
Moose Molds, the Rapine successor, doesn't make a 350T, but your Accurate one should be close enough.  

I dislike wheel weights because of alloy/hardness variations that can also contain ZINC and CADMIUM!  
THESE two WILL ruin a pot of metal and cannot be fluxed out.  No doubting that!

Simple alloy of PURE and tin to be at most 20 parts lead to 1 part tin should be as hard as needed.  
I have seen lino alloys recommended, but not gone that hard.  
I use 16Bhn alloy of pure and tin from Rotometals or my old stock of dead pure tin.  
Dead pure tin, cast into long, NARROW bars in a piece of angle iron will "crackle" when held to the ear and bent.  
This old "tin-cry" test is sufficient.  Old beer cooler coils were pure tin.  Test for cry.

Still have not seen the photo's of your new item.  

Kevin

[PJ Hardtack]

Hello, PJ:

Still have not seen the photo's of your new item.  

Kevin

Cominatcha by email.

I'm worried those bullets will be too hard on the .003 rifling of my Shiloh 50-70s. Don't know about the Spencer.

My rule of thumb has been that if I can't mark it with a thumbnail, the lead is too hard. However, I have shot WW bullets with BP successfully with no problems.

[El Supremo]

No worry, PJ:

Wouldn't have sent if concerns, and they worked fine with no issues in another A'sport Spencer.  
Happy to send more if it helps.

Have shot them in my Romano's, during feeding tests, with .004" grooves with no concerns.
Others, I respect say that they have used straight lino in Romano's with good accuracy!  

I would have zero concerns, even with 22-24Bhn lino in a Shiloh, which will also accept thick copper jacketed bullets too.  
Not that I or most would run jacketed's through them.  Yipes; it hurts to think of that.

I have shot lots of straight lino and 20:1 alloy in .004" deep grooved black powder long range 50-58 cal bullet rifles and if fitted correctly, there was no gas cutting.  That is the key - no cutting!
Creeps, the oiled sawdust recovered ones had powder grain depressions in the bases and they shot VERY well.

It's just what is the most accurate.  

From those recovered bullets, we learned that any alloy SOFTER than 30:1 would, with 2.5 to 3.25 caliber long RIFLE BULLETS, produce nose setback and rumply ogive surfaces from normal black powder, 1250fps, loads.
Such "set-back" is not common with shorter bullets like we use in Spencers, so softer than 20:1 should be fine IF accuracy is good.  

Really PURE is widely used with proven accueacy in muskets and carbines such as Smiths and Maynards.
As you say, PURE obturates well and WILL be a bit more forgiving.  I shoot straight pure in muskets and carbines with great and consistent results.  But their BASES ARE PERFECT!

We went to 20:1, lead:tin and knew that if a naked 3-caliber long bullet carefully driven 1/4" into the muzzle engraved to the bottom of the grooves, it would shoot well enough to repeatedly win Nationals.  If even one bullet gas had gas cut, it would have been a flyer out of the group.  The score difference over multi-day long Agg's of 35/50shots was an "X" or two for 1st and 2nd and at most a point or two for third.  Absolutely no room for alloy mistakes.  Some of my two-piece cast bullet noses "tinked" if dropped on a concrete floor.  

The secret is uniform alloy via pure metals.  In my opinion lead hardness "screw and spring indenters" are better than nothing, but not much better.  I have some, but went to assayed pure and don't use them now.  You can test bullets of assayed hardness with one of those screw testers and see the variation that even careful manipulation WILL produce.  Pure lead reading "4" will sometimes indicate clear at the high end!  The instructions say to just ignore the odd ones!  Hmmm.

I like the thumbnail test, too.  Amazing how many "soft" lead bullets from reclaimed range lead cannot be thumb nail indented.  When a person gives me a cast bullet and says it won't shoot, the first thing I do look for absolutely perfect base EDGE uniformity and then thumbnail it.  Most are too hard and poorly cast.  The weight range over 300 cast bullets can be halved if the base edge is perfect. Lots of casting is done with metal and moulds not hot enough.  Irregular base edges indicate those things. Cast bullet guru's taught me that the base edge is extra critical.  We had swages to impart a 1/32" radius to true-up that edge.  Sierra's bullet die maker showed me his tooling.  He ALSO stressed the base edge aspect.  He was a world-class shooter and used Sierra 168's out-of-the box or big pails, NO weighing, etc.  

Will signal on the emailed photo's.  Thanks.  

Have enjoyed all this a lot.  Winters are long, even in Florida.  

A bibb overalled tabacco chewing rifle barrelmaker of renown saddled up to me one afternoon at a range in Indiana in the '70's and said I was "putting the shoot into the rifle".  After it is made, the challenges start.

Don't ask me what time it is.  Haha.

Kevin

[PJ Hardtack]

A 45-70 Sharps BPCR enthusiast of my knowledge used to true the bases of his cast bullets on his mini lathe. He loaded with Fg and was a tough man to beat.

Can't argue with success like that ...