Goex vs. Swiss

R.M. Conversion · December 09, 2018, 11:50:48 AM

Made up some .38 Special cartridges - 158g projectile, 17g 2F powder and a vegetable wad. The Goex cartridges had less 'oomph' than the Swiss ones. Haven't tried over a chronograph yet, but the difference was noticeable.

hellgate · December 09, 2018, 07:18:24 PM

Are you shooting them in arifle or a pistol? Which bullet are you using? The amount of lube needed depends on the barrel lengthof the gun. 3F Goex might give more oomph than the 2f which is a softer shooting powder.

Cholla Hill Tirador · December 09, 2018, 10:22:32 PM

I cut my BP teeth on some old GOEX in metal cans. That was the filthiest stuff you could imagine. I got some Swiss and the same loads chronographed MUCH faster and the powder was significantly cleaner burning.

CHT

R.M. Conversion · December 10, 2018, 10:28:24 AM

Shooting a 5" 1851 Conversion, with BP-lubed, 158g cast round nose. I've noticed the Swiss is much cleaner, too.

hellgate · December 10, 2018, 11:47:03 AM

That outta work fine in the pistols. I shot the Lyman 358311 158 RN In a rifle and found I needed a couple if thin beeswax discs under the bullet or else the bore fouled. The problem was I needed to do a wet swab every 10 shots w/out the extra beeswax. With the beeswax I only got 6" groupa at 50yds. Without the wax I got 1,5" groups but needed a messy swabbing. I went to 777 and never looked back. I do miss the sulfur and boom.

Abilene · December 10, 2018, 01:20:26 PM

Quote from: hellgate on December 10, 2018, 11:47:03 AM
... I do miss the sulfur and boom.

And don't forget the flame!

Dick Dastardly · December 10, 2018, 04:33:23 PM

I see no mention of Schuetzen here. It is a good compromise between Goex and Swiss. Also, give the 158 grain Big Lube® Snakebite bullet a look. It hauls all the lube you need or want with no need for cookies etc.

Merry Christmas!

DD-MDA

R.M. Conversion · December 10, 2018, 07:59:16 PM

In order to get a lube cookie in there with a thin wads, I had to reduce the charge to 14g. Even still, the base of the projectile is giving pretty good compression.

I'll switch to big lubes after my present stockpile of cast .38s (bought for smokeless cartridges) is used up. Pan-lubing them with SPG is working out okay.

hellgate · December 10, 2018, 11:44:16 PM

DD is right about the Snakebite bullet. I tried it years ago but icould not get it to feed reliably in my finicky model 92. Any other rifle would have handled it fine. It is a great solutionand comes in a 6 cavity gang mold that makes a huge pile of shiney bullets in no time.

Dave T · December 11, 2018, 08:43:10 AM

Off topic as related to black powders, but is there a source of the "big lube" bullets already cast and lubed? I can't cast any more and need to buy my bullets from someone.

Dave

Cliff Fendley · December 11, 2018, 08:48:12 AM

Quote from: Dave T on December 11, 2018, 08:43:10 AM
Off topic as related to black powders, but is there a source of the "big lube" bullets already cast and lubed? I can't cast any more and need to buy my bullets from someone.

Dave

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

hellgate · December 11, 2018, 09:45:53 AM

I believe you can get samples from biglube.com
DD can confirm that.

R.M. Conversion · December 11, 2018, 05:32:21 PM

I intend to switch over to BL bullets, but I have a considerable stockpile of 158's and 140's that I'm melting the smokeless lube off of and replacing with SPG.

About compression - is it possible to have too much of a good thing? With a couple of thin wads, a lube disk and 14g of powder, I only have about 1/8" free space left before the case mouth. If I cram a 158 on top of that, the bullet seats okay - but am I ramming that 2F with too much force? I don't want the lube disk in direct contact with either the powder nor the base of the bullet.

Does that much compression have an adverse effect on pressures? I was thinking of going to 13g or maybe even 12g to eliminate this problem. The 140's aren't quite as wide below the crimp groove as the 158s.

Or should I go to 3F for more powder density?

Thanks...

Abilene · December 11, 2018, 05:43:29 PM

If you are just shooting this ammo in pistols, there is an easier way. I have been shooting unlubed bullets in my pistol BP loads for nearly 20 years. I do melt out the hard wax lube, though I doubt it is necessary. After loading 5 rounds, I squeeze a blob of butter-flavored Crisco over the first two rounds to be shot. That's all. Now if I was packing in the woods or something that might get messy, but for CAS use (or at a shooting range) where you load and shoot, load and shoot, no problemo. No wads makes for more room for powder as well. You could actually shoot a fair amount out of a pistol with no lube at all and not lose accuracy for some time, though the bore might be harder to clean.

Big lube bullets are great for rifles, but total overkill for revolvers. Sure won't hurt nothin', though.

Dave T · December 12, 2018, 10:01:31 AM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on December 11, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Thanks Cliff. I'll give them a try.

Dave

Bunk · December 13, 2018, 07:53:23 AM

In my opinion (like belly buttons everybody has one) it depends on what kind of shooting you do.
Personally for CAS shooting GOEX works just fine. Since usually one of my shooting session is 30+ rounds that burns up a lot of powder.
If you are engaged in long range, or very precision shooting and are not running powder through the gun like green grass through a goose, then Swiss is most likely would be the way to go.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

Cliff Fendley · December 13, 2018, 11:22:08 AM

I'm sort of like DD, I like a compromise and Schutzen does that well where I will be burning quite a bit of powder and even for the cleaner burning needs I prefer Old E because I can't really tell the difference between it and Swiss in performance but I sure can the price.

Blackpowder Burn · December 14, 2018, 11:21:45 AM

As you say, everyone has an opinion.

I use Goex Olde Eynsford - their premium line of powder. I use it for everything - from regular CAS matches to precision long range and find it performs equally as well as Swiss, both velocity and accuracy. It is a slightly less dense powder, but if you load it by weight (i.e., 17 grains by weight of either Swiss or Olde Eynsford) I find velocities very comparable. It's also very clean burning.

And the good part is that it's far less expensive than Swiss, only about $1.50 per pound more than standard Goex.

Cliff Fendley · December 15, 2018, 08:39:24 AM

Quote from: Blackpowder Burn on December 14, 2018, 11:21:45 AM
As you say, everyone has an opinion.

I use Goex Olde Eynsford - their premium line of powder. I use it for everything - from regular CAS matches to precision long range and find it performs equally as well as Swiss, both velocity and accuracy. It is a slightly less dense powder, but if you load it by weight (i.e., 17 grains by weight of either Swiss or Olde Eynsford) I find velocities very comparable. It's also very clean burning.

And the good part is that it's far less expensive than Swiss, only about $1.50 per pound more than standard Goex.

I'm actually surprised they even sell any regular Goex with the little price difference between it and Old E.

Regular Goex is way overpriced for it's quality compared to other much better powder. Old E, Schuetzen, etc.

I really miss KIK, I used to use a lot of it for regular CAS, great powder for the price.

Oregon Bill · December 16, 2018, 10:04:24 AM

Abilene, some of my pals over on the British Militaria forums who shoot Sniders and Martinis have adopted a similar technique. They'll dip the nose of a loaded cartridge in lanolin-rich Udderly Smooth skin cream from Walgreen's then chamber and fire. Lube issues solved. I have used DD's Big Lubes, though, and they work just dandy as well.