.428 with .429 bore

[William R. Foster]

Hey all, i have decided to get chancey and go with a 44WCF revolver and Rifle combo. That being said ill obviously be reloading. The info i have found for the Cimarron Frontier is that its a .429 bore. I cant find any info on the bore size of the Short Rifle they sell. Regardless .429 has been near impossible to find online for a bullet, with .428 being the closest. Will .428 be okay for both revolver and rifle until i get to where i cast my own? Any potential problems? Thanks.

[Long Johns Wolf]

FWIW: I am shooting .44 Colt ammo through my pair of Uberti .44 Special Colt 1873 SAAs.
The bullets are .428"/200 grainers.
I am using the same bullets for the Uberti Win 73 rifle.
Why?
Because .429"/200 grain bullets gave me cycling issues in the rifle due to its tight chamber.
Accuracy is more than sufficient at CAS distances from both pistols and rifle.
Long Johns Wolf

[William R. Foster]

Would you consider the accuracy good enough for hunting distances? My rifle at the least will play dual roles.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Up to 150 yards from my rifle will be OK with the .428"/200 grainers.
My decision to load the .428" and not the .429 was based on the cycling issues.
If the rifling groove dia of your lever gun is .429" and it will reliably chamber the .429ers you will probably get better accuracy loading the .429ers.
Long Johns Wolf

[William R. Foster]

Up to 150 yards from my rifle will be OK with the .428"/200 grainers.
My decision to load the .428" and not the .429 was based on the cycling issues.
If the rifling groove dia of your lever gun is .429" and it will reliably chamber the .429ers you will probably get better accuracy loading the .429ers.
Long Johns Wolf

I cant seem to FIND .429 anywhere.

[Long Johns Wolf]

.429" is the regular size dia of .44 Colt, Magnum, Russian or Special bullets.
Long Johns Wolf

[William R. Foster]

Thanks. It will be some time before i gain a rifle (july-aug of 19). So in the time being ill only be loading for my revolver. Would .428 have decent performance in it you figure? Cant find any hard data on what they tend to slug out to. Id like one bullet/load data for both in the end. Plan is starline brass, MO .428 200grainers, and more than likely Unique powder with a CCI 300.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

  I would never use an undersized lead bullet, you're asking for trouble in the form of leading. When in doubt, bigger is better where cast bullets are concerned.

Cimarron/Uberti use a .429" groove diameter in their 44-40 revolvers and rifles.

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist/

I have a Uberti Sporting Rifle in 44-40 and size my bullets .430". They chamber fine and are plenty accurate out to 200 yds.







...and not bad at 300, considering the L-R breeze I was fighting-



  Revolvers are an entirely different matter. One needs to be more concerned about the diameter of the cylinder throats than the groove. I shoot tons of .44 Special in three different Uberti/Cimarron's and recently switched from sizing .430" to sizing .432". This change helped reduce leading significantly and had no negative effect on accuracy.

  I've only fired 44-40 out of revolvers a little. My oldest Uberti came to me a s a 44-40 and I later fitted a .44 Special cylinder. I could never get and meaningful accuracy out of it with .430" bullets. On a whim I tried the same bullets sized .432" and everything came together.

  Missouri Bullet Company has a bullet that looks as though it'd work perfectly in a 44-40 and they offer it in .430"-

]http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=63&category=5&secondary=12]

That's where I'd start.

The bullet I use in my 44-40 is a 220 gr. RNFP I cast. I load it over 9.0-9.5 grs. of Unique, Power Pistol or Herco



   Worked well on deer too!

 

  CHT

[William R. Foster]

THANK YOU. So, all of that info being said, what dies do you load with? Santa is brinhing me a Lee 3 dies set and a factory crimp die for 44-40. Will that die set handle loading the .430 without anything extra?

  I would never use an undersized lead bullet, you're asking for trouble in the form of leading. When in doubt, bigger is better where cast bullets are concerned.

Cimarron/Uberti use a .429" groove diameter in their 44-40 revolvers and rifles.

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist/

I have a Uberti Sporting Rifle in 44-40 and size my bullets .430". They chamber fine and are plenty accurate out to 200 yds.







...and not bad at 300, considering the L-R breeze I was fighting-



  Revolvers are an entirely different matter. One needs to be more concerned about the diameter of the cylinder throats than the groove. I shoot tons of .44 Special in three different Uberti/Cimarron's and recently switched from sizing .430" to sizing .432". This change helped reduce leading significantly and had no negative effect on accuracy.

  I've only fired 44-40 out of revolvers a little. My oldest Uberti came to me a s a 44-40 and I later fitted a .44 Special cylinder. I could never get and meaningful accuracy out of it with .430" bullets. On a whim I tried the same bullets sized .432" and everything came together.

  Missouri Bullet Company has a bullet that looks as though it'd work perfectly in a 44-40 and they offer it in .430"-

]http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=63&category=5&secondary=12]

That's where I'd start.

The bullet I use in my 44-40 is a 220 gr. RNFP I cast. I load it over 9.0-9.5 grs. of Unique, Power Pistol or Herco



   Worked well on deer too!

 

  CHT

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

THANK YOU. So, all of that info being said, what dies do you load with? Santa is brinhing me a Lee 3 dies set and a factory crimp die for 44-40. Will that die set handle loading the .430 without anything extra?

  I've used a new set of RCBS and a n Lyman set, both worked fine and I bet the Lee dies will work too.

CHT

[William R. Foster]

Awesome. Thanks.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I use a larger inside neck collar at .429 for my LEE dies in .44-40. I swapped it from LEE .44 mag dies, and use it as an "M" die to slightly funnel the case mouth and insert the base of the .428 bullet by hand before seating followed up by a LEE collet factory crimp die.

You might have to try a few combinations to get it to work for your particular case.

If chambering remains a problem, changing cases might help as some have thinner necks than others. (As I recall W-W seem to be thinest.)

[Coal Creek Griff]

I use a standard Lee set with the collet-type factory crimp die.  I don't use a different expander, but it works fine for me.

On the other hand, to get the rounds to drop freely into my revolver chambers, I did remove some metal from the bottom of the sizing die.  That allows the shoulder to be bumped back slightly more than previously.  I have five 44 WCF guns and I was looking for complete interchangeability.

I've found that, with this cartridge in particular, it may take some experimenting to find what works best in your guns.  There are tons of different ways of doing things and my way won't necessarily work for you.  I find it worth it, though.  Note that I keep buying more guns in that caliber...

CC Griff

[Abilene]

I use a larger inside neck collar at .429 for my LEE dies in .44-40. I swapped it from LEE .44 mag dies, and use it as an "M" die to slightly funnel the case mouth and insert the base of the .428 bullet by hand before seating followed up by a LEE collet factory crimp die.

You might have to try a few combinations to get it to work for your particular case.

If chambering remains a problem, changing cases might help as some have thinner necks than others. (As I recall W-W seem to be thinest.)

I did the same, as I was loading .429 bullets to start in 44-40.  Winchester brass (Starline and Black Hills or BHA also thin necks.  R-P, PMC, and others too thick).  But later I switched to .427 bullets.  Still using the .429 expander, though.  The .427 bullets perform fine in my Uberti carbine and two pistols.

[Tater Pickens]

Springfield Slim aka Mark Whyte sells 44's in .429.

Check him out at www.whyteleatherworks.com.

Tater Pickens

[Cliff Fendley]

I've shot a lot of .427 in .429 bores for CAS with no issues. That said .429 bullets are easy to obtain as others have posted sources.

[Yeso Bill]

My 3 brass Uberti's measure .4295" and when I started shooting the first one, I ordered Desperado's soft bullets (8-9 BH) in .430" in 200 gr. and 240 gr. and experienced no problems.

http://cowboybullets.com/44-Caliber_c_10.html

I didn't shoot a lot of them.  Maybe 200.  Much lower SD's using BP convinced me to quit playing with smokeless and I changed to the Accurate 43-230 C bullet for more lube.  Those bullets will average 236.7 - .8 grains using 30:1.    

The 200 Meter group below was shot with OE III BP and the Accurate bullets sized to .431".  The load contained a .030 veg. wad.  They will fit in my Uberti pistols, barely.

Billy

PS.  I'm not so convinced that it is the bullet / bore relationship as it is a bullet / chamber relationship.  These soft bullets bump up and squeeze down.  I think you want enough bullet (width) so that the bullet has a better chance of entering the barrel straight.  As Cholla says, "Bigger is better", but the gun needs to chamber the shells too.    I have never had a problem with leading.

In order to keep the cases straight (for minimum bullet run - out) I have tried every expander I can get my hands on and have had the best luck with Noe expanders set loose in a Lee powder die.  The one I'm using is a .427 x .431" and after case spring-back, the ID is about .4285.

I've tried the case / bullet tension from O to .004" and they all seem to shoot real good until that 4th or 5th shot.  

 

[William R. Foster]

Contacted Cimarron to see if they could give any info as to cylinder throat size. Figured it was worth a shot. Funny thing, they "greatly discourage shooting reloads through their guns and that any info they have is posted on their website. I assume this is for legal liability. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Contacted Cimarron to see if they could give any info as to cylinder throat size. Figured it was worth a shot. Funny thing, they "greatly discourage shooting reloads through their guns and that any info they have is posted on their website. I assume this is for legal liability. 🤷🏼‍♂️

  Uberti/Cimarron does a very good.job with their cylinder throats. I have a very new Uberti 44-40, I'll try to remember to measure the cylinder throats when I get home.

CHT

[William R. Foster]

  Uberti/Cimarron does a very good.job with their cylinder throats. I have a very new Uberti 44-40, I'll try to remember to measure the cylinder throats when I get home.

CHT

That would be great. Thank you.