Ammunition....

[Archie Cal]

I've done some site snooping, internet trolling, some discussions at gun shows, and even some phone calls to manufacturers and distributors, all trying to get an answer to a question that's been bugging me for some time. So I will pose it here, figuring there's enough expertise to answer it with finality....!

We all know, or have heard, the admonition to not use higher pressure loads in a modern manufactured clone.... Some go so far as to advise not to even use any "modern" ammo in them. With all the legal and liability issues that exist in today's world, I am wondering how much of this is actual safety issue, and how much is unilateral liability prevention. For example, Taylor's told me that they recommend only "cowboy competition" loads in their cartridge revolvers - which after further conversation was explained to mean "low pressure" ammunition. They also recommended that no jacketed ammo whatsoever be shot through their pistols. When I asked, well, for example, what about the .357 Mag revolvers? That's the definition of high pressure... Surely there are many people shooting modern manufacture magnum ammunition through them? The response was they recommend only low pressure .357 Mag unjacketed ammo, and that what is most commonly shot through them is .38 Special in competition. It remains unclear then, why the pistol is manufactured as a ".357 Magnum"....

So I'm hoping someone can explain the exact issue with using higher pressure ammunition (for example, Buffalo Bore Heavy or even a personally developed load) in, say, an Uberti Cattleman 1873 reproduction.

I'm not curious about the more questionable manufacturers, or in original Colts with more unsound metallurgy, where the issue is obvious, but in the quality reproductions that we find now from the main manufacturers. I'm not sure I understand what exactly is the weakness of the design that makes it susceptible to catastrophic failure with otherwise safe high pressure ammunition.

I will say, that in my research, I have yet to find any single documented incident of a failing revolver system (catastrophic or otherwise) with higher pressure ammo in a clone - other than in some rifle lever linkages. But I will also say that the internet and gun community is rife with the dire warnings about using it, the lack of Italian quality pressure proofs, etc. But don't they proof with loads that are 30% higher than any standard ammunition?

And to be clear, I'm not talking about ridiculously high pressures like, say, packing smokeless into a case trying to get 1200 fps out of a 5.5 inch barreled 44-40. I'm talking about, just as an example, loading it with Buffalo Bore 44-40 Heavy for a secondary hunt carry, such as this https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=513 which actually describes a 5.5inch ColtSAA clone, though it doesn't list a velocity for it.

To be clear, I am not looking for a justification to use this ammo. I'm just curious about what, exactly, is the issue.

Anyway, I look forward to your responses!

[St. George]

These guns are built for 'factory-standard' ammunition that meets SAAMI specs - that's what they're built for, and shoot the best.

That said, reloaders can and do experiment - but if you blow up a cylinder with those loads, then it's all on 'you' - that's why the factory only warrantees 'standard' and 'low-pressure' stuff.

You want to load heavier?

Get a Ruger Blackhawk.

Scouts Out!

[Abilene]

These guns are built for 'factory-standard' ammunition that meets SAAMI specs - that's what they're built for, and shoot the best....

Right.  When people call Cimarron and ask that question, they are told any SAAMI spec ammo.  No +P.

I don't know if there is a SAAMI spec for the 44-40, being older, but any standard factory ammo is fine.

[Archie Cal]

These guns are built for 'factory-standard' ammunition that meets SAAMI specs - that's what they're built for, and shoot the best.

That said, reloaders can and do experiment - but if you blow up a cylinder with those loads, then it's all on 'you' - that's why the factory only warrantees 'standard' and 'low-pressure' stuff.

You want to load heavier?

Get a Ruger Blackhawk.

Scouts Out!

Just curious St. George, but aren't all modern firearms built along SAAMI guidelines? If so, why would someone be able to load a heavy, say, 270Win in a FN WIN Model 70, but not in a modern reproduction revolver?

[Galloway]

I'm not sure I understand what exactly is the weakness of the design that makes it susceptible to catastrophic failure with otherwise safe high pressure ammunition.

Because the Ruger Blackhawk and Old Vaquero used a bigger cylinder with offset bolt notches, that allowed much higher pressure loads than new vaqueros, colt saa, and saa clones.


This is just for 45 colt however, any 357 or 44 special should be fine, and im unaware of any current wcf rounds loaded to +P pressure.

[Professor Marvel]

Gather around the stove kids, put on a pot of Expresso Arbuckles, and keep the eggshells handy, and
Uncle Grandpa  Professor marvel will tell you a story give you a mini history lesson.

Firstly,  What St. George and Abilene said.

If you are talking modern Rugers, Virginia Dragoons, blah blah blah, that's a different kettle of fish.
you can shoot whatever factory ammunition it is chamber for,  with dull regularity,
and "some" special Ruger Only Loads" you may find in loading manuals...

if you are talking "old school cartridges originally designed for Black Powder in an old school design"
then you really need to stick to Factory SAAMI PRESSURES as a maximum.

the older SAA design is not as strong as the Ruger, etc nor are the cylinders as thick.

If you get an modern Single Action of the old design (ie Cattleman) style in .357 magnum or .44 magnum,  you can shoot magnums
all you like, but you should stay within SAAMI pressures as published for those calibers.

It's all about pressure and pressure curves.

In the dark past of history ( learn from history or be doomed to repeat it! ) there were for example hot 44-40 rifle loads
that said "rifle " on the box and if you blew up your BP Colt pistol with it... well, tough.  People did not shoot anywhere near as
many rounds in a lifetime as we do in our hobbies, so guns that were properly cared for seldom wore out.

Gun design was a trade-off ... Guns were designed to be light enough to carry all day, and strong enough to do the job, but not
indestructable.

After  WWI then  WWII a bunch of gun cranks started hotrodding stuff and shooting the s**t out of whatever they had.
Theu discovered that the "hot loads" would actually cack the frames or links in a model 1873 Winchester rifle if you
shot many thousands. But a Model 1892 with it's stronger design would stand up to them almost indefinitely.

Eventually they discovered similar things about the Colt Model P single action design.  Then about the large frame
Colt and S&W double actions.

S&W came out with the .357 magnum and the .44 magnum, and life was good.
A few nutcases blew those up finding their limits.
the same sort of folks push the envelope on car engines and aircraft. It makes them happy.

Then around the 1960's or so Magnumitis and Big Game Handgun hunting took the shooters by storm and the crazies big names started designing  handguns that were built like tanks, and weighed as much as a small rifle. .454 Casull and such come to mind

now, new guys who don't know the history start wondering and ask the hivernaughts....

and some slow-witted types decide they are undiscovered geniuses breaking new ground and start loading .45 Mugnums into
soft italian BP designs ....

However -you specifically asked about "Buffalo Bore Heavy"

if you will recall,  Great Grandpa Uncle Professor mentioned pressure and pressure curves earlier.
Buffalo Bore has developed some "special" loads with "heavy for caliber" bullets that are loaded to standard SAAMI pressures.

for example:
snip----------------------------------
BUFFALO BORE HEAVY 357 MAG
180 gr. JHP (1,500fps/M.E. 899 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box

ITEM 19L

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 Mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J-frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don't phone or email us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in a safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don't recommend this ammo be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself won't hurt these super lightweight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

endsnip----------------------------------

So, if your modern pistole' is chambered for a modern round,  according to Buffalo Bore, you can safely shoot their stuff.

BUT it is most likely that a steady diet of that hot stuff ( ie 200 rounds a week) will wear out your pistol.
I know several LEO's who wore out S&W model 19's 13's , 29's and Colt 1911's shooting "a lot of hot stuff"

ALSO REMEMBER - don't try to duplicate Buffalo Bore 's loads.
They are professionals, they have a lab, and Magic Pressure Test Equipment.
And Computers
And IBM's proprieary Magic Server Pixie Dust

https://www.youtube.com/embed/3nbEeU2dRBg

hope this helps
uncle grandpa prof marbels

PS If you wear out, or break your gun, it's on you, not Buffalo Bore , or any other ammunition manufacturor

PPS if anyone notices I got any facts wrong, please feel free to correct me and I shall update my history lessons

[Professor Marvel]

Aaaaaaand after reviewing the OP's original post where he actually supplies a link ot the ammunition in question ( thanks archie):

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=513

we find, if we go there and read it thoroughly that Bufflao Bore specifically lists several KNOWN STRONG .44-40
revolvers... and DOES NOT include any of the Italian clones.

so, I would say

No, don't do that.

instead of risking  your .44-40, load a full case of real Black powder
or go shopping and buy a used but good .44 mag for the purpose.

 
yhs
uncle grandpa prof  marbels

[Abilene]

Or you could call Buffalo Bore and ask them.

What is a .45 Mugnum?  I want one!  But don't worry, I'll load it down with lots of filler.

[Professor Marvel]

Or you could call Buffalo Bore and ask them.

Heavens, what a marvelous idea!!!

What is a .45 Mugnum?  I want one!  But don't worry, I'll load it down with lots of filler.

here ya go Abilene
be sure to use LOTS of dacron


yhs
Uncle Granpa Professor Marbels

[Dave T]

Professor,

I was trying to imagine the momentum of those two cartridges in a British double rifle. Then I imagined being charged by dangerous game in Darkest Africa. It made my imaginary shoulder hurt. (smile)

Dave

[nativeshootist]

Buffalo Arms lists a 1905 colt new service as pistol they tried their Heavy 44-40 ammo in, so I'd imagine a Italian pistol made with modern steels will survive, the ammo isn't listed as a +P ammo, just little more potent than the "cowboy" loads many manufacture make nowadays

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

  Archie, there is a lot to this subject...

  First and foremost, it matters not what someone who answered the phone at Taylor's, Cimarron or Uberti told you regarding what type ammunition you should/can use. The manufacturers, through the recommendations of their engineers, tell owners of their firearms in no uncertain terms- Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards. And that is directly out of a Uberti manual for their 1873 cartridge revolvers. Now hold on to all that thought for a bit...

   Firearms writer Elmer Keith began exploring heavier loads for 1st Generation Colt Single Action revolvers back in the '20's and while he didn't much hotrod the 45 Colt, he did the .44 Special and after a certain slower burning pistol powder was introduced in 1932 he essentially turned it into a .44 Magnum, or at least pretty darned close. The specific loads he used in that caliber have since been pressure tested and found to run around 25,000 psi chamber pressure. Remember, these were OLD Colts.

  Now fast forward 80 or 90 years. Although todays 1873 Colt reproductions are universally considered "clones", they're not, really. They actually have slightly larger frames, slightly larger diameter cylinders and thus slightly thicker cylinder and chamber walls. \

  I submit for reference my well used, but handsome 1902 production Colt. Note the diameter of the cylinder-

 

  Now a couple Uberti produced revolvers. (And for my portion of the discussion, I'm talking ONLY about Uberti's)-

 

   

  For reference, here is a Ruger Flat Top Blackhawk and it's cylinder (Same size as a Ruger New Vaquero)-

 

  What?!?!? Did Ruger COPY the dimensions of the Uberti?!?!? Anyhow...

  Notice how much larger the Uberti cylinders are than that of the Colt. Noted revolver guru Brian Pearce, in his column in the April 2017 Handloader Magazine, stated-

    The Uberti revolver features a more or less .020-inch larger diameter cylinder ( 1.670 inches) than the Colt SAA ( 1.650 inches); however, the distance from the axis of the cylinder and the center of the bore is the same. This adds significant steel to the outside of the cylinder, as well as over the bolt notch ( effectively doubling that thickness), which is the SAA pattern revolver's weak link.

   Now, go back and grab that thought I told you to hold onto regarding CIP, SAAMI and the Uberti manual. Did you know that Uberti manufactures 45 ACP cylinders for their revolver? The same 45 ACP whose maximum SAAMI pressure is 19,000 psi for standard loads, and 23,000 psi for +P factory loads. This means that their revolvers are designed to withstand these types of pressures. Mr. Pearce went on the state in the column I mentioned above- If your Uberti is of late manufacture, it will handle .45 Colt loads that generate similar pressures as .45 ACP factory loads that are industry rated at 21,000 psi, or 23,000 psi for +P loads.

   The point of all this is that a Uberti Cattleman in 44-40 will handle ammunition loaded to SAAMI pressures, and then some. 

   I've always used my Uberti's primarily for hunting and general carry around the property here. Of the 3,000+ rounds I've fired through my oldest .44 Special, a third of those have been a hunting load consisting of a 260 gr. cast bullet running 950-1000 fps. The load I use in that purty Uberti Frisco 45 Colt pictured above is a 290 gr. cast SWC at a hair under 1,000 fps. A Uberti Flat Top in 44-40 I received in August, to which I fitted a .44 Special cylinder, has mainly fired its hunting load which is a  252 gr. cast bullet running a smidge over 1100 fps. 

    So don't worry about shooting any factory load in your revolver, just enjoy it!

   CHT
 

[Oregon Bill]

Most excellent thread. I have been asking this question myself. CHT, really appreciate your contribution. I'm not about to try to run Ruger loads through a Uberti, but it sure seems like that latter should safely handle John Linebaugh's 260-grain cast at 900, or a .44 Special at close to 1,000.
From JL's essay on the .45 Colt:

I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt.  My boys have taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with their .45 Colts. They use a 4 3/4" Colt SA and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards

[Galloway]

Great thread!! Does anyone know if the recent saa cylinder is the same dimensions as that first gen?

[Abilene]

Great thread!! Does anyone know if the recent saa cylinder is the same dimensions as that first gen?

Yes, near as I can tell with my dial caliper.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Great thread!! Does anyone know if the recent saa cylinder is the same dimensions as that first gen?

 I assume when you say "saa" you're referring to Uberti single actions, and this is the "Colt SAA Clones" section.

  I've bought three Uberti's this year, one was the Frisco pictured above, a 2014 production. Here is a 2017 production Flat Top 44-40 (now a .44 Special)and a 2017 production Uberti Cattleman in 32-20, both of which have the 1.672" diameter cylinders, same as the Frisco.

 

   

 FYI, I THINK that Pietta's Colt SAA reproductions are the same size as the Colt's.

For reference, here's the measurement of my 3rd Generation Colt, whose cylinder is smaller than those found in the Uberti's-

 

 CHT

[Galloway]

No I meant the current colt saa's. I wondered if they had remained the same all these years and generations. Judging by the pics they haven't, and the 3rd gen is slightly larger than that 1rst.