Looking for a Loading Tool

[Professor Marvel]

Ah yes, the "living history" part...

Before you get in front of and audience, I would suggest an amount of practice with your tools.  Say, around 500 or so rounds.  If you can't do it in your sleep in a dark room with someone screaming in your ear, your not really ready for "Prime Time."

Give some serious thought to planning for your plan.  The best plan only survives to the first shot.  Having a half loaded round ignite in front of a discerning audience will NOT enhance your image.

Coffin makes an excellent point.

Loading cartridges is not an activity in which anyone can afford to be distracted.

I cannot count the number of times that we read about a member "getting distracted" whilst reloading...
by a spouse, a pet, the phone, or just "going mechanical" whilst watching TV ....
then realizing they made a mistake....

many folks catch it at the moment or  close after... and have to dissassemble many rounds.
some folks don't catch it until a round goes ffffffuut ...   or "pip" instead of bang. at least those are not KABOOM moments!.

I have done living history blacksmithing, and have made many many mistakes whilst talking to visitors... just getting distracted.

I have made the mistake of talking to people when loading my Hawken On The Line at a rondesvous.... and dryballed it.
(dryball: to load a muzzleloading rifle without powder, leading to having to stop and get tools to pull the ball and patch)
it is soooooo easy to get distracted ....

then there is the further issue of having open containers of powder and primers "too close" to the public,
who may be  smoking,  or drinking or doing other stupid things (kids playing with fire, trying to deliberately mess things up "as a prank" ....       )

trust me on this one, as a demo blacksmith, I have had wierd crap done to me and my anvil, my tongs, my hammer and the fire in my forge . And I have had stupid people try to pick up "black hot" steel even after being told "it's hot" and not to touch anything.
I even had finished knife blade stolen off the bench. Turn your back and people do wierd sheisse .

Thus, if demonstrating loading, I might suggest that you consider

faking it.

just in front of people, just for demonstration.
old crappy demo brass ( I like to stain them black with cold blue for easy ID )
dead (or previously fired) primers
fake powder - fake BP would be great, just use a scoop to fill a case with "black powder" ....
slightly undersized bullets that can be easily pulled, and not crimped in.

one can have a box of "real" previously loaded rounds and at the same time (somewhere out of reach)
one could safely "reload" the same 15 demo rounds over and over and over ...
whilst lecturing the Great Unwashed on the topic without having to worrying about it.

one can then use a "bullet pulling hammer" to dissassemble everything afterward as needed.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/685703/rcbs-powr-pull-impact-bullet-puller-kit

yhs
prof marvel

[greyhawk]

Yes I know very little about it. I was just told that there was different types of Unique powder and I needed to find out which one to use. Didn't mean to offend anyone by asking lol

Mike - you not offending anyone - we just worry about you blowin your head off - and if you doin living history demos without proper experience you just might (very likely) do hospital type damage to some bystander(s) as well - stick to your area od expertise (whatever it is)
be safe

[MikeM.]

I understand guys and will probably do triple 7 or pyrodex powder substitute . I'm not totally ignorant to guns and things that go boom. I am a 22 year Army Infantry veteran with multiple deployments so I have heard a lot of BIG booms and seen the aftermath of them too . Been gun collecting since I was 16 years old and understand the ins and outs but have just now gotten interested in reloading but only historical reloading for my 73 Winchester , which probably wouldn't handle a hot loaded round anyway.

[Slamfire]

 Hey Mike ,, it's just everyone is concerned by the questions you have asked ,, I know you have seen & fired a lot of " ready made rounds ." RELOADING , new game ( for lack of a better word ) ," concern is a form of respect and yes even love for our fellow reloader's " . Don't ever stop asking question's ,, it s added insurance. Do the folk's here ever get tired of answering ,,NO , or the pages would be blank. " stay the course ".

  smoke'm if y'a got'm ,, Hootmix .

[Coffinmaker]

Hi again Mike,


Just for your edification, BOTH of your choices as substitute for BP SUCK!!  Pyrodex is a rusting Agent that just happens to Burn.  777 is about 15 - 20% MORE potent than real BP.  You would be better off using real BP than those two Subs.

I thank you and Applaud your service.  I'm a 26 Year Veteran.  Nothing you did on AD prepared you for reloading.  New Game.  New Book,  Think of it like training for a new MOS you've never done.  Take your time.

[Bunk]

Mike,
Let me put in my two cents worth on reloading.
First and foremost get a good reloading manual and read all of it. I cut my reloading teeth on the Phil Sharp book A Complete Guide to Reloading which is unfortunately ot of print and the powders used are also long gone, but the how to and how it works and how it is made are still excellent information.
Lyman makes a good book because there is a lot of lead bullet information.
Sorry, but loading data from some one who is not equipped with a ballistic lab is worthless and possibly dangerous. Take those loads with a grain of salt and and check suggested loads with  a loading manual.
Good luck and have fun
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Professor Marvel]

I used to say Pyrodex and 777 were ok if sufficient cleaning was done.

I have changed my mind about 777 , and updated the sticky on the Powder room:

update:

hogden changed their site structure, the old links are no longer valid, and they have made it increasingly more difficult
to find the SDS sheets -
here is a new link for pyrodex

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-pyrodex-sds-new.pdf

and triple 7

2017:
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/triple-seven-sds-sheet-2017.pdf

snip---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Section 3:  Composition/information on ingregients
Component                       CAS-Number       Weight %
Charcoal                                16291-96-6      10%
Sodium Benzoate                    532-32-1       10%
Potassium Nitrate                 7757-79-1       30%
Potassium Perchlorate        7778-74-7       30%
Dicyaniamide                         461-58-5         10%
Dextrin                                     9004-53-9       10%

Note:  Other ingredients are trade secrets, but can be disclosed per 29CFR1910.1200(i)

Section 4:  First-aid measures
Ingestion:
* if vomiting occurs, turn patient on side to maintain open airway.  Do not induce vomiting.
  contact a Poison control center for advice on treatment, if unsure.
Eye Contact:
* flush eye with water for at least 15 minutes.

Section 5:  Fire-fighting measures
Extinguishing media:
* For unattended fire prevention, water can be used to disburse burning Triple Seven®.  Triple Seven® has
its own oxygen supply; flame smothering techniques are ineffective.  Water may be used on unburnt Triple
Seven® to retard further spread of fire.

Special Procedures:
* Triple Seven® is extremely flammable and may deflagrate.  Get away and evacuate the area.
Unusual Hazards:
* As with any pyrotechnic, if under confinement or piled in moderate quantities, Triple Seven® can explode.  
Toxic fumes, such as sulfur dioxide are emitted while burning.
Inhalation;
* remove patient from area to fresh air.
Skin Contact:
* wash the affected area with copius amounts of water.  Some persons may be sensitive to p
endsnip---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aug 2018:
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-pyrodex-sds-new.pdf

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-tripleseven-sds-new.pdf

-------
notice that in 2018 they changed the list to be deliberately vague -
ie: both potassium nitrate and potassium perchlorate are listed as *15-40%  ...

*In accordance with paragraph (i) of the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200) ,
the specific chemical identity or exact wieght % has been withheld as a trade secret.
--------

Worse, they have deliberately left out  Dextrin and Dicyaniamide   in the latest triple 7 SDS "as a trade secret".
I call bull.
they don't really have that  many competitors, and the "full disclosure" has been published since  before year 2000.

the 10% Dicyaniamide is an important ommission.
I myself am wondering what it does when burned.
I did my best with reading the chemistry tomes on
- Dicyaniamide
- Dicyandiamide
- Cyanoguanidine
- guanidine
- calcium cyanamide
and more
and came away more confused. Now I remember why I nearly failed chemistry


I am both intrigued and dismayed at the level of obfuscation.
Makes one wonder what they are trying to hide, and why.

[MikeM.]

Ok real black powder it will be then. I read that the Swiss powder is best, any truth to that??

[Bunk]

Mike M
Swiss is good stuff, a bit pricey but high quality. If you can't get real black powder I would recommend American Pioneer Powder, Jim Shockeys Gold, or BlackMZ all being the same stuff. It is a completely different formulation that the "P" stuff and the residue is about like real black powder and easier to clean. Friend Coffinmaker got me on it and I like it and use it in my .44-40 and snubby percussion revolvers.  Presently on the bench are a bunch of primed empty 12gauge shells to be loaded with APP and we will see how that goes.
Unlike Black Powder it is compatible with petroleum lubes a handy side note.
Welcome to the dark side have fun make smoke.
Yr Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Professor Marvel]

Mike M
Swiss is good stuff, a bit pricey but high quality. If you can't get real black powder I would recommend American Pioneer Powder, Jim Shockeys Gold, or BlackMZ all being the same stuff. It is a completely different formulation that the "P" stuff and the residue is about like real black powder and easier to clean. Friend Coffinmaker got me on it and I like it and use it in my .44-40 and snubby percussion revolvers.  Presently on the bench are a bunch of primed empty 12gauge shells to be loaded with APP and we will see how that goes.
Unlike Black Powder it is compatible with petroleum lubes a handy side note.
Welcome to the dark side have fun make smoke.
Yr Obt' Svt'
Bunk

not only that but you can get BlackMZ at Sportsmans Warehouse for $10 a bottle!

yhs
prof marvel

[Bunk]

Prtof. Marvel,
Unfortunately the only Sportsman Warehouse near me folded up several years ago.
Coffinmaker urged me to try APP in what ever wrapper it uses and was well satisfied with it.
But I mostly deal with Powder Inc. (shameless plug) and a stay with real Gun Powder.
My shooting is slowing down due to old age and general debility but the range behind my house gets plenty of work out.
And yes I would as soon shoot stainless steel balls and clean with battery acid as use the "P" stuff.
From my brown shoe army days cleaning rifles after those chlorate primers gave me enough of that racket to last a lifetime.
Thank you Winchester for developing those "Staynless" primers and caps.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[MikeM.]

Ok guys , I'm looking at die sets and am wondering if I need the regular RCBS 44-40 dies, RCBS Cowboy dies, or Hornady Cowboy dies??   Any opinions on this ??

[scrubby2009]

I use the plain RCBS dies and a Lee crimp die when assembling smokeless loads. Trailboss and real Black get full cases, so I don't "extra step" with the crimp on those. All under Bear Creek moly-lubed castings.

[MikeM.]

Ok guys , I just wanted to do a follow up post on my progress. Turns out that 8gr of Unique and a 200gr .427 fnfp lead ACME bullet loaded in my Winchester 1882 loading tool is very accurate out of my Uberti/ Cimarron 1873 SRC!!!!

[MikeM.]

Filled the magazine tube on my rifle full and got some telescoping on a few rounds. Do you guys think it would help if I went to a .430 bullet??

[Coal Creek Griff]

This is a common problem, generally related to neck sizing and crimp.  The solution is sometimes complicated, but it has been discussed in these pages before.  I don't believe that a larger bullet size will be the solution for you.

CC Griff

[pony express]

Does the bullet you are using have a crimp groove? And since you are using the vintage tool, how tight does the bullet fit into the case neck, and does it produce a good crimp?

Also, loading with Black Powder will prevent telescoping, since the bullet can't go down with the powder already under compression(which was probably how your loading tool was meant to be used)

[MikeM.]

I think it produced a pretty decent crimp since this only happened to a couple of rounds. The bullets go into the neck really easily and this is why I thought I would try the .430 ones and see if they are tighter. That makes sense on the black powder by the way.....I'm going to give that a try too. Thanks Guys

[pony express]

OK, , I've never used one of the vintage tools like you're using, so maybe I have it wrong....but, the way I understand them, they don't resize a case the way a modern die set does, where you first size the case down , then expand to just let the bullet seat. Don't they just basically seat  bullet, crimp, and resize all in one operation? It seems like, if that's the case, then you'll never really get the same neck tension as a modern set, but primarily depend on a strong crimp to hold everything together.


Maybe when using that tool, you'll have to visually check each one for a good crimp, and maybe try pushing the bullet against something, just to check.

[MikeM.]

Exactly, yes that's what im thinking too. I plan to use modern dies most of the time but thought it would be neat to use this old tool a little too.