Velocity Standard-New Hot Topic for 2006??

[Gold Canyon Kid]

For those involved in the black powder 15 g standard development and testing, did anyone run some velocities for the various calibers and or bullet weights?  A new hot topic during 2006 at all the Regional matches might be to disucss setting a new minimum velocity standard that would vary by caliber.  This new standard might have something like a 450 fps minimum for 45 caliber, 500 fps for 40 caliber, 550 fps for 38 caliber and maybe something like 650-700 fps for 32 caliber.  These numbers were tossed out just as examples of what the blackpowder minimum smoke loads might produce.  So what kind of velocities do the black powder numbers actually produce in velocity with different bullet weights and calibers? It seemed pretty clear that SASS does not want power factors or one velocity standard for all calibers as attempted in the past.  What was indicated was a desire to set a minimum floor that would not impact most folks, just the extreme light loads. It was stated that knockdown pistol targets have not been successful in establishing a floor load. I am sure this will be discussed calmly for the entire year (sic). It was also stated that shooters might have to add margin for low temps, loading tolerances, gun tolerances, etc.  Manufacturers would also have to add margins for all these issues also.

[Camille Eonich]

There's an awful lot of mights in there. 


Just curious....who was tossing around all of these numbers and ideas?

[Arcey]

(3) Should all blackpowder categories be changed to add the following
statement in the Shooters' Handbook? 

"It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke-obscured
targets. To insure this, all shotgun, revolver and rifle powder charges must
produce smoke equivalent to a base line load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc)
of ffg blackpowder.  ((The verbiage "Some blackpowders, or blackpowder
substitutes, may require less volume to produce this amount of smoke" was
deleted from the item. Protest, where someone does not feel the smoke is not sufficient
would be handled through the Match Director.))
For 83.05%  Against  16.61%   Abstain  .34%   (YES)

The way I read it, it's about smoke not velocity.

I kindah like it.  I was loading more than that..........

[Cuts Crooked]

I have long held that dropping the minimum velocity requirement was the single biggest mistake ever made in the annuals of CAS! And I'm not alone in that, some members of the Wild Bunch have expressed the same opinion in the past.

However, SASS is a money driven organization (which is not a totally bad thing, ok?) and it was explained to me that ammo manufactures were behind the dropping of the MV rule because they could not create low recoil ammo and assure that it would make the minimum in all guns....and ammo manufactures are .....money!

Money trumps everything!

I don't like it, and I don't have to, but my feelings will not change anything and CAS will continue regardless! I would love to see the MV reinstated, but I ain't gonna hold breath waitin' fer it to happen. Instead, I'm gonna be out there shootin!

[Gold Canyon Kid]

I believe this subject will be on the agenda for all the TG meetings at Regionals in 2006 and if it gets a positive review will be on TG agenda next Dec. SASS leadership is driving the issue. The old reason for rejecting minimum velocity (ammo suppliers) has been overcome by events so to speak.

[RRio]

I have long held that dropping the minimum velocity requirement was the single biggest mistake ever made in the annuals of CAS! And I'm not alone in that, some members of the Wild Bunch have expressed the same opinion in the past.

Cuts,
I totally agree with you.

Look at it this way, if the velocities get lower, pretty soon we'll be able to get out there and chuck rocks at the targets!

RRio

[Arcey]

Mornin' boys.

Cuts, mi brother in BOLD.

Been darn near tens years ago but I seem ta recollect someone winnin' a big shoot out west usin' .32s so light the boolets was bouncin' back darned near whole.  So they come up with the 650 thing.  Safety issues.

Affer that, someone stuck a cartridge from an EoT sponsor inta a short barreled pistol imported fer sale by 'nother EoT sponsor 'n run it o'er a 'graph.  Weren't close ta 650.  The 650 went away.  Reason given for bounce-back affer that was it was more a matter of target placement and mountin' rather than the low velocity of a bullet.

Also seem ta recollect someone weren't happy with someone else doin' such a test.  Somethin' 'bout someone outside the admin messin' where they didn't belong ta be messin' then publishin' the results.

Fer whut it's worth.  Could be true, could be a fairy tale. 
..

[Cuts Crooked]

The old reason for rejecting minimum velocity (ammo suppliers) has been overcome by events so to speak.

I don't see it, but I'm kinda dense ya know! (willing to listen to any expansion on that subject)

Actually, seems  I recall that at, least one ammo maker has been peddling a low recoil/velocity BP line intended for the CAS crowd already.

[Gold Canyon Kid]

CC, I don't have a clue why the old reason for killing the 650 limit is now OBE, but that is the short version of what I heard in Vegas, maybe I heard wrong but doubt it. It is clear that SASS/Wild Bunch has started down this new velocity standard road.  I think this issue will get a whole lot of discussion at each regional shoot this next year and as a result maybe we can all better understand what has changed.  Certainly the cost of a chronograph has come down dramatically.  Anyone can have one for about $100.  A club could buy one and shooters could test their loads. I shoot really wimp loads but do it via bullet weight not velocity.  I exceede the kind of velocity values discussed by a lot. When the just passed black powder standard was first discussed, I said several times that it was only a first step to set ammo standards for all shooters.  In this case I hate being right.

[Big John Denny]

Pards, the two clubs I'm a member of told our TGs to vote against the proposed recommended BP standard at the convention TG meeting. Both groups of members felt the whole thing was driven by politics among a small group of BP shooters. Both my clubs have many BP category shooters, and none have ever failed to make "smoke". Matter of fact if they all shot together nobody would be able to see anything on any of the stages if the wind was right.

I always felt to have a standard for the BP shooters without any similar standard for the smokeless shooters was unsportsmanlike. We used to have the 650fps velocity mininmum but that fell by the wayside. I have never shot a cartridge that would go slower then that old level and don't see why it couldn't be brought back to eliminate all the debate over the "cap gun" shooters that seem be growing in number.

The cowboy way is to be fair, but to establish an arbitrary standard for BP shooters without some similiar standard of measurement for smokeless shooters just doesn't seem to be fair to me.

[Camille Eonich]

Big John....I feel the same way.  I think the standard that they set is too subjective.  We had one club vote against and the other club voted for it.  I'm not sure how the other clubs that we shoot at voted. 


I did just post a message an a local club message board and one of the TGs that was actually in Vegas and attended the summit peplied and said that there was no discussion at the summit about bringing back the minimum velocity.  He did say that there was some discussion about how many shot shells that you can pull at once.  They are talking about setting the limit at 2.

[Big John Denny]

Camile, you never know what drives SASS these days, besides profits that is. I shoot a double, always have, and only pull two shotshells now. I can see where such a rule would affect those that use a 97.

You know when SASS first started didn't they use just one revolver. I always heard the WB went to two revolvers to make more sales for the gun companies.

[Stump Water]

I always heard the WB went to two revolvers to make more sales for the gun companies.

I've always heard that it was so they could shoot more.  'Course I'm just livin' in a closet. One o' them that doesn't subscribe to the ideal that CAS is forgin' new ground in the firearms industry.

Whooo wheee!  Look at all of us! 

We're dang lucky that they paid the attention to us that they did.

[Texas Tall]

I've got to agree with Big John, If limits are enforced for BP shooters the same should apply with nitro loads.  We have the 650fps min downunder but at times I've been at shoots where the loads used by some I almost feel I could run along beside 'em. (Smokeless that is)
Regards...........Texas Tall.

[Doc Shapiro]

When the 650fps rule vanished, the rumours going around were that it was because no one was willing to enforce it.  Rather than have an unenforced rule, they did away with it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a minimum velocity back.

[J.D.Cayhill]

I have long held that dropping the minimum velocity requirement was the single biggest mistake ever made in the annuals of CAS! And I'm not alone in that, some members of the Wild Bunch have expressed the same opinion in the past.

Cuts,
I totally agree with you.

Look at it this way, if the velocities get lower, pretty soon we'll be able to get out there and chuck rocks at the targets!

RRio

Yep, I agree. But if the targets get any closer and you miss with a rock, just poke it with the end of your pistol barrel.

Maybe that's why they are so close. So the bullet doesn't bounce on the ground be for hitting steel.  

[RRio]

RRio
Yep, I agree. But if the targets get any closer and you miss with a rock, just poke it with the end of your pistol barrel.
 

Could probably do it with my old 7 1/2". 

[Big John Denny]

Pards, I'm not trying to start a ruckus here, but I just feel that holding out one group of shooters at a SASS match for special arbitrary restrictions on their loads isn't fair. If there's a new standard for the BP shooters there should be a standard for all.

At my local clubs we've never had a problem with BP shooters not "making smoke", like I mentioned before. I still think its all about local peer presure and enforcement, and the rule for BP shooters didn't really need to be changed. But since it has, there should be at least an equal velocity standard set for all shooters like there was before.

Meanwhile, I wait to see all the new equipment it will take to analyze the powder in a questioned load and the chrongraphs to check for proper velocity.

[Camille Eonich]

Well another TG said that it had been talked about and may appear on the agenda for the next TG Summit.

[Coop Trawlaine]

I don't know enough about all this other stuff, velocities, minimum smoke level,, etc.   But someone mentioned the targets being placed closer in to the shooters.....My Gawd, if I shot a buntline (12" barrel) and I missed I could just get the DING sound with the tip of the barrel.    Our posse leader mention that didn't we notice that the targets were considerably closer and my comment was "Yeah, fire and duck!"