loading blackpowder, lead balls & lard or tallow ??

[greyhawk]

Personally I use a 1/8" felt wad soaked in a mixture of 50:50 by weight of tallow rendered from beef kidney fat and paraffin wax.
In the past my experience with adding any oil to the mix winds up with the oil bleeding out because apparently it does not dissolve in the tallow/wax mix.
Perhaps there may a difference with sheep tallow  but I live in beef country where that kind of fat is available and is easily rendered into tallow. I have some tallow that is two years old in a tin container kept in my shop and it shows no hint of getting rancid.
I have been told that lard from the grocery has salt added to it. Pure leaf lard is available but I am not in the pig business while beef fat is.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

Bunk
I have been using beeswax and neatsfoot oil for ages - however - the last lot I mixed I did not like - bought cheaper neatsfoot from the feesdstore and it did not want to mix - also did not smell right when I shot it - somebody has messed with it I reckon - still looks like the right stuff but is not . Also wanted to ask you about mixing Beeswax and parrafin? I was given a large bag of wax pieces that I assumed was beeswax but turned out to be a mix of beeswax and various candle wax - picked as much of the beewax out as I could and melted the remainder (thinking it would mix under heat) when that mix set It had not mixed at all - had a cake of beewax with what looked like veins of candle wax (or whatever) streaked through it - just wondered if you have seen this ot=r maybe know what type of wax I had that separated like this???
cheers
Greyhawk

[blackpowder]

Today I shot both of my pistols in my back yard 

The first, my older Belgian made FAUL-Centaure Colt 44 clone (5.5" barrel), loaded with lead balls, a dry felt wad and chambers topped off with Nivea extra heavy skin cream, which has about the same consistency as pig-lard or pork-fat (only thing I had and I figured at least it smells better). After the first shot I noticed the white goo mostly gone from the two adjacent chambers and after firing all six balls I noticed about 15 yards out the remains of one of the felt wads smoking and smoldering on the ground.

The second gun, my Pietta 1860 colt 44 clone (8" barrel) I loaded with only powder and lead balls. However, the balls fitted really tight leaving a nice round shaving of lead after seating them on top of the powder. My percussion caps usually fall off the nipples anyway so I tweak each and everyone with a pair of needle-nose pliers so they stay put. When shooting I had no problems with ignited wads or greasy goo splattering on my pistol or unsuspecting bystanders.

My experience shooting cap and ball is very limited but unless someone tells me what the great advantage is of using wads and sealing chambers with tallow or whatever, I will just pass these up and shoot the gun using only powder and ball.



 

[Crow Choker]

Good grief blackpowder, yer doing to much and not enough. I've been reading this thread since you first posted it, thought about giving my two cents, but all the other veteran cap and ball shooters have been doing fine, saying what I'd say. Using a wad and greasing the top of the balls is doing a 'two fer'! If when using a wad (lubed in some way) and a correct fitting ball that shaves a ring of lead when you seat the ball, that's all you need. As you found out, after shooting that first round most of the grease is splattered all over your gun and hand, greasing over the ball is messy and basically to no effect. Back in '72 or '73 when I got into cap and ball shooting, over the ball greasing was the norm. Messy and I always wondered if what grease was left if it was doing anything for lubing the ball and preventing any chain fire. I took a few years off of shooting, but in '08 bought a Uberti 2nd Model Dragoon (more c&b's followed) and discovered the use of lubed wads No more greased gun and greasy hands. Always had to carry a old rag tucked in my gun belt for wiping. (Still do, but not for that purpose). I've always bought Eastern Maine felt wads in the thousand container bag from Midwest Shooters Supply that were sort of dry lubed, but I added my own concoction of lube to them. A blend of mutton tallow, beeswax, paraffin, maybe some olive oil--what ever ratio that worked best for the weather I was shooting in.

Most 44 cal c&b's work fine with .454 balls, except the ROA which likes the .457's. I've tried. 457's in the Italian 44's, but they seat to hard. The '36's like .375's or .380's which I prefer. All my Uberti's and two Pietta's 44's do fine with .454's. Anything smaller like .451's "ain't enough"! I've loaded my guns with the greased wads in all kinds of temps -10* to 90*+ and have never had a shot gone bad from lube soaked powder. Of course, I shoot fairly quickly what I load. Have never kept a c&b loaded, sitting around the house. If so, won't use the greased wads. See no point in leaving one loaded anyway, if for defense, a Colt .357 and one of my 45 acp's are ready for any social work.

As far as caps go, if you're having to pinch the caps to stay on the nipples, your caps are to big or nipples to small. What size and brand are you using? The majority of c&b's I've seen and all I have get along fine with Remington #10's. CCi#11's work, but they don't have as long of a skirt as the Rem 10's. All the stock nipples on my Italian made Uberti's and Pietta's did fine with the Rem 10's. Stayed on fine without pinching and while firing. As Coffinmaker suggested and maybe others (can't recall as I type this), the best bet is to go with nipples such as Slix Shots. The Treso's work good to if you can find them. Also Track of the Wolf has a design similar to Treso's, but are made of stainless steel. I did though get along fine with the stock nipples, but the 'custom' ones are better. If your pinching your caps, they're to big, not fitting correctly, and is a possible recipe for a chain fire. Go back into the Darkside Dark Arts and read a thread written by Mako titled "Cap Gun Primer: Correct Cone Lenght". Very informative, well written-a ton of information on nipple's (cones) and percussion caps. As I wrote before, Remington #10's are your best bet, followed by CCI's #11's if Rem 10's aren't available. Stay away from CCI #10's. They are way to small in diameter and won't fit down over the nipple. If you haven't already done so, get a Ted Cash Snail Capper, best capper IMO on the market. At least gret a straight line capper (you just have to fill it alot-you can put a whole tin (100) of caps in one of the 'snailers'. I'd advise not to pinch the caps either with a pair of needle nose pliers. Pinch one just wrong and it could go off-eyes are a valuable comodity.

If you prefer not to use a wad or grease, up to you. I don't grease on top of balls for reasons I gave, but prefer to use a greased wad for lube and keeping the powder fouling soft. I've shot probably up to 65-75 rounds in one gun in one shooting session using a greased wad and didn't expierence any hard fouling in the barrel. Have never seen any smoking wads or found any that had burn evidence. Using no lube along with the ball I believe your going to see hard powder fouling develop in the barrel. I love cap and ball revolver shooting--if you do it right, you'll find a new love for shooting. You take care. Crow Choker

[Coffinmaker]

I second what Crow Choker said.  Some in spades.  If you research back far enough, in the written word, about Cap Guns, your going to run into some really ridiculous "Old Wives Tales."  Right, Wrong, Indifferent or just plain Ignorant, some folks just have to write a Trieste about what they learned on their first day shooting their Brandy Knew Cap Gun.  Either that, or they go out and make a YouraBoob Video and display their raw ignorance before the whole world.  Unfortunately, some seekers of knowledge see these ..... CRAP .... things and actually believe them.  Then they PARROT (REPEAT) them as gospel.  Where was I.  Oh Yeah, I remember .........

If your pinching caps, your doing it wrong.  Correct fitting caps need no pinching.  Should get no pinching.  Pinching has been hyped by a lot of ...... experts.  Try and remember .... an Ex is a "has been" and a spert is merely a drip under pressure.  Not only is pinching caps wrong, it's dangerous.  As mentioned, a Cap fragment in your eye is no laughing matter.  DO NOT just "make do" whit something you just happen to have.  Use the correct components.  Now, next.  Good Idea to final "seat" your caps on the nipples.  Most of the time, the caps don't seat completely down just using a capper.  After capping, with the gun pointed away from you, use a stick of some sort, the correct size for the cap, and push the cap down tight on the nipple.  Lots less fail to fire that way.

A good friend of mine shared an old saying in aviation I had mostly forgotten.  Experience is something you gain just after you really really need it.  Take your time.  Keep asking questions and don't abandon ship.  Cap Guns are way more fun than those silly Suppository Shooters.

[Mogorilla]

Just my $0.02 on wonder wads.   I forget the reason, but I ended up having a loaded 1860 and no chance to shoot.   Pistol was loaded with FFF Goex, (26 grains) a wonder wad and a .454 ball.   I ended up capping the five and sitting it in the gun safe.   Mind you I keep some dri-rite in the safe, I took it out to shoot 3 months later.  I fully expected having to pull the nipples and force the charges out.   All 5 went off without a problem.   So, I do not think the commercial lube had dampened my powder.

[Bunk]

Hi Gang,

While this is somewhat off topic I might add this thought to the conversation. Following Geojohn's recommendation I broke he sharp edge on all my cylinders giving them a slight bevel. When loading there was either very little lead shaving after seating the ball or none at all.   
To satisfy my curiosity I dry balled a couple of chambers and, using a brass rod, drove the ball out.  No matter where the sprue was either up down or sideways the ball had a nice wide belt swaged into the diameter.
I am satisfied that the chamber is sealed tight and after about 2 pounds of powder going through a pair of .44 caliber snubbies
(thanks Coffinmaker) there has never been any sign of a problem and the cylinder face stays clear of lead shavings.

Greyhawk there is a neats foot like oil that is a synthetic of the real thing. You may have gotten some so check and be sure it is genuine real neats foot oil. I got caught on this and have a large bottle of "almost" neats foot oil. It works OK on leather but may not work for a lube mix.
At least that works for me YMMV.

Respectfully submitted
Bunk

[hellgate]

Mogorilla,
The WWs probably only wetted the upper 5-10 grains of powder. I've squeezed WWs and they do have an oil in the woven felted fabric but they are not saturated.

[blackpowder]

@Mogorilla - I assume you loaded only 5 chambers to keep the hammer on an empty one when storing, right? I found that on my Pietta clone I can load all six and rest the hammer right between chambers and it locks in place so the wheel doesn't move.

@Coffinmaker & Crow Choker - thanks for your good inputs. I've learned a lot. I think Crow Choker is right that I do too much or not enough. So I think I will  just drop using over ball grease all together and use a greased wad for shooting more than two cylinders to keep the powder fouling soft. If I just shoot my usual one to two cylinders, I will skip the grease on the wads as well.

As for the caps, I just got Remington's # 10 and they fit much better than my other ones - no tweaking necessary. I used Dynamit Nobel # 1075 made in Europe (this because the guy in the gun shop thought European caps would better fit on European nipples. Not without a certain logic, I must say.).

[Coffinmaker]

Blackpowder,

Gotta remember, loading all 6 in a Cap Gun is not a hazard.  Unlike a Suppository shooter, a Cap Gun is actually designed to be carried with all 6 loaded and capped.  The Safety pin between chambers fits in the hammer slot and prevents the cylinder from turning.  The single step hand is designed to carry up the cylinder from that mid turn position.  CAS rules prevent having all six capped until you are on the "line."  Any other time, I and I think, most of us carry all six ready to go.

[Crow Choker]

I always load six at a time (unless my balls say are down to only four left) when I'm shooting at my range or walking along a near by river shooting at targets of opportunity. Exception would be of course at a SASS/NCOWS shoot. Use the safety pin/slot to lower hammer on. blackpowder-I'm no total expert by any means but your post of the 'guy in the gunshop' telling you European caps would fit better on gun made in Europe, well I'm not cutting him down, but I've seen some pretty loose and bad advise by either owners or employees of places where guns and things to go with them are sold. After yer into any shooting sport for a while and get experienced and personally informed you'll be able to separate fact from fiction on things like that. Heck, the first time I saw a Navy Colt I thought the cylinder was all scratched up until the dealer and shooting friend steered me straight. (Thought I'd better toss that in Jubal).

[greyhawk]

Good grief blackpowder, yer doing to much and not enough. I've been reading this thread since you first posted it, thought about giving my two cents, but all the other veteran cap and ball shooters have been doing fine, saying what I'd say. Using a wad and greasing the top of the balls is doing a 'two fer'! If when using a wad (lubed in some way) and a correct fitting ball that shaves a ring of lead when you seat the ball, that's all you need. As you found out, after shooting that first round most of the grease is splattered all over your gun and hand, greasing over the ball is messy and basically to no effect. Back in '72 or '73 when I got into cap and ball shooting, over the ball greasing was the norm. Messy and I always wondered if what grease was left if it was doing anything for lubing the ball and preventing any chain fire. I took a few years off of shooting, but in '08 bought a Uberti 2nd Model Dragoon (more c&b's followed) and discovered the use of lubed wads No more greased gun and greasy hands. Always had to carry a old rag tucked in my gun belt for wiping. (Still do, but not for that purpose). I always bought Oxyoke's in the thousand container bag from Midwest Shooters Supply that were sort of dry lubed, but I added my own concoction of lube to them. A blend of mutton tallow, beeswax, paraffin, maybe some olive oil--what ever ratio that worked best for the weather I was shooting in.

Most 44 cal c&b's work fine with .454 balls, except the ROA which likes the .457's. I've tried. 457's in the Italian 44's, but they seat to hard. The '36's like .375's or .380's which I prefer. All my Uberti's and two Pietta's 44's do fine with .454's. Anything smaller like .451's "ain't enough"! I've loaded my guns with the greased wads in all kinds of temps -10* to 90*+ and have never had a shot gone bad from lube soaked powder. Of course, I shoot fairly quickly what I load. Have never kept a c&b loaded, sitting around the house. If so, won't use the greased wads. See no point in leaving one loaded anyway, if for defense, a Colt .357 and one of my 45 acp's are ready for any social work.

As far as caps go, if you're having to pinch the caps to stay on the nipples, your caps are to big or nipples to small. What size and brand are you using? The majority of c&b's I've seen and all I have get along fine with Remington #10's. CCi#11's work, but they don't have as long of a skirt as the Rem 10's. All the stock nipples on my Italian made Uberti's and Pietta's did fine with the Rem 10's. Stayed on fine without pinching and while firing. As Coffinmaker suggested and maybe others (can't recall as I type this), the best bet is to go with nipples such as Slix Shots. The Treso's work good to if you can find them. Also Track of the Wolf has a design similar to Treso's, but are made of stainless steel. I did though get along fine with the stock nipples, but the 'custom' ones are better. If your pinching your caps, they're to big, not fitting correctly, and is a possible recipe for a chain fire. Go back into the Darkside Dark Arts and read a thread written by Mako titled "Cap Gun Primer: Correct Cone Lenght". Very informative, well written-a ton of information on nipple's (cones) and percussion caps. As I wrote before, Remington #10's are your best bet, followed by CCI's #11's if Rem 10's aren't available. Stay away from CCI #10's. They are way to small in diameter and won't fit down over the nipple. If you haven't already done so, get a Ted Cash Snail Capper, best capper IMO on the market. At least gret a straight line capper (you just have to fill it alot-you can put a whole tin (100) of caps in one of the 'snailers'. I'd advise not to pinch the caps either with a pair of needle nose pliers. Pinch one just wrong and it could go off-eyes are a valuable comodity.

If you prefer not to use a wad or grease, up to you. I don't grease on top of balls for reasons I gave, but prefer to use a greased wad for lube and keeping the powder fouling soft. I've shot probably up to 65-75 rounds in one gun in one shooting session using a greased wad and didn't expierence any hard fouling in the barrel. Have never seen any smoking wads or found any that had burn evidence. Using no lube along with the ball I believe your going to see hard powder fouling develop in the barrel. I love cap and ball revolver shooting--if you do it right, you'll find a new love for shooting. You take care. Crow Choker

Crow Choker
I agree and disagree at the same time
you mentioned doing a twofer - greased wad and grease over top - that was me - a Walker we want shooting accurate with full cylinder loads - did this based entirely on where the boolits landed on the target - that particular gun shot a better 25 yard target with a smidgeon of lube over the ball as well as the greased egg carton (couldnt find any felt that day and didnt wanna cut holes in me hat)  underneath.
Had reamed the cylinder on that gun (an old CVA labeled one) rifling was .450 x .462 - it would shoot with a half load and cornmeal filler - but shooting yr breakfast out of a Walker ? Nah!!! ---cylinder was originally .452 - we took it out to .462 and use a .464 ball - all works a treat - the boy used to really enjoy shooting this cannon because of all the noise and commotion and we just thought he was a lousy shot - likes it a lot better now that he can hit stuff.
Caps ? for sure no pinching - take the time and trouble to fit the caps and nipple right no matter what it takes - I harp a bit on that thing of clearance at the back end.  I really think a lot of chain fires come from ill fitting caps impacting the recoil shield or a worn gun allowing that - whatever - its critical to check that .   

[Crow Choker]

greyhawk--Nice shooting report with the Walker and your modifications. Two thumbs up! 'blackpowder' did mention in post #21 that he used a under the ball wad and topped off the balls with some sort of nice smellin' hand cream. That is where my comment of "'to much"/"two-fer" was aimed at. Penned that due to the fact he was doing two things to achieve the same goal. Not that it can't be done, but for the most part not necessary (in most cases). Bet it gave a whole new smell to percussion/black powder gun shooting.

[greyhawk]

greyhawk--Nice shooting report with the Walker and your modifications. Two thumbs up! 'blackpowder' did mention in post #21 that he used a under the ball wad and topped off the balls with some sort of nice smellin' hand cream. That is where my comment of "'to much"/"two-fer" was aimed at. Penned that due to the fact he was doing two things to achieve the same goal. Not that it can't be done, but for the most part not necessary (in most cases). Bet it gave a whole new smell to percussion/black powder gun shooting.

CC
just fer fun
Before we did the tune up the boy had read a guru advice someplace sayin grease over the top was silly idea - should put it under the ball -- now we were usin a thick lube cookie about 1/8th inch thick and cut cylinder size with a wad punch , fairly stiff lube and I kept it inna fridge so less mess usin it - weel I wuz workin in the shop doin some lathe work an the boy an his partner setup just outside for a practice - big boom - mr walker - 5 more then a pause - then after some scuffling round another boom kinda wuzzy sounding then a couple more - hey Dad come lookit this! target pinned to the fence and its alight in two separate places!! Do thaty again son! boom - yeah empty it  - that grease cookie loaded down on the powder an squashed a bit - its stuck to the ball and at twenty yards we got a round ball tracer round - could see flame alla way to the target an again its set fire to the paper. The walker apparently had enough ooomph in the charge to blow the lube cookie apart but his 1860 army not so. So the straight lube cookie at our place was not smart idea.   

[hellgate]

I remember years ago I met a guy at a CAS shoot who loaded BP then Cream of Wheat over that and smeared margarine from a tub onto the cylinder face. He said "Every time I touch this thing off I can smell breakfast cooking!" I assume his eggs were pretty ripe if it smelled like his breakfast.

[Coffinmaker]

Digressing for just a moment (caution!! Thread Drift Here) it should be known "Margarine" was never intended to be ingested by Humans.

[blackpowder]

greyhawk--Nice shooting report with the Walker and your modifications. Two thumbs up! 'blackpowder' did mention in post #21 that he used a under the ball wad and topped off the balls with some sort of nice smellin' hand cream. That is where my comment of "'to much"/"two-fer" was aimed at. Penned that due to the fact he was doing two things to achieve the same goal. Not that it can't be done, but for the most part not necessary (in most cases). Bet it gave a whole new smell to percussion/black powder gun shooting.

Just had a look at the ingredients in the hand-cream. 80% deer-tallow, 10% other natural fatty-substances, the rest whitening agents and parfumes. Does the same thing as pig-lard but smells and looks a hell of a lot better. 

[will52100]

When I first started with cap guns I used wonder wads, then made my own.  Then went to greasing over chamber.

What I've found works for me is just a simple swipe of crisco over the chamber mouth.  I don't try and fill them completely, just get some in there.  The blast from the cylinder gap will blow excess lube out and melt and spread the rest around the balls or conicals.

I can't remember the specifics, been a few years and I didn't write the results down.  I did a test with my 1860 army and dry balls with full charges of 3F Graf's BP.  Somewhere around the 4th cylinder full, all six chambers loaded each time, accuracy started going south really quick.  A couple more cylinder fulls and I had to manually turn the cylinder due to fouling.  Cleaned it up, and boy was that a choir, barrel looked like asphalt was built up in it, cylinder arbor wasn't much better.

Tried it again with just a swipe of crisco and I could run all day. and often do.  Most times I put anywhere from 100 to 200 balls through mine.  Gun's a greasy mess, but an occasional wipe with a paper town takes care of the worst, and it's pretty easy to clean at the end of the day.  One thing about blowing grease everywhere is that everywhere also includes things like the cylinder arbor.

I've had one chain fire in around 30 years of shooting cap guns.  And this was from the rear.  Reason I know this is because it was a 51 navy that I'd converted to cartridge.  Turned the cylinder down and reamed out the chambers and made a temporary breach plate and screwed it to the frame at the six o'clock position.  Didn't like it, but was an interesting experiment, and bought a new cylinder and converted it back to percussion.  First shot and I had the ball under the rammer go off.  Dug it out and unloaded it and cleaned the gun and plugged the screw hole for the now removed breach plate.  The fire from the first shot followed the hammer around and out the screw hole that just happened to line up perfectly with the 6 o'clock cap.  After filling the hole, no more chain fires.

You can have a chain fire from the front, but if everything is in proper order then it's physically impossible to have a chain fire from the front.  If you've got under sized balls, or egg shaped chambers, or-and I've seen this a lot on earlier guns-a bur on the chamber mouth that will shave a grove or will undersize a ball.  Basically the chamber mouth is slightly smaller than the chamber.  If the chambers are round, have a slight chamfer, and a proper sized projectile is seated, and a shaved off ring of lead is not necessarily a good thing, better to have the ball or conical swaged down into the chamber, you can see the displaced and distorted lead, then your not going to have a chain fire from the front. 

That said, each gun is different, what one likes and works well another might not like.  And one of the nice things about the cap guns is that they are pretty forgiving of different methods of loading and lubing.

[blackpowder]

Thank you everyone for all the good advice. In the future I will use greased wads of some sort to prevent powder fouling when shooting more than one cylinder.

One more question: Some of you think all that lube and grease, especially over the ball greasing and closing off the ends of the chambers with a little lube/grease seems to improve accuracy. This I don't understand how this works and why it should improve accuracy.....  

[greyhawk]

Thank you everyone for all the good advice. In the future I will use greased wads of some sort to prevent powder fouling when shooting more than one cylinder.

One more question: Some of you think all that lube and grease, especially over the ball greasing and closing off the ends of the chambers with a little lube/grease seems to improve accuracy. This I don't understand how this works and why it should improve accuracy.....  

I was one of the "some of you think" people ---one particular gun, a walker clone shooting full cylinder, shot noticeable better with a small amount of boolit lube over the ball in combination with lubed wads underneath - I have no idea why - dont understand how it works - but it did !! - its a 55 grain powder charge, my instinct was maybe it would like a bit of lube over the ball. Had we changed the cheapskate egg carton wads for proper felt might have done as well - the only felt we had was my hat at the time. 

walker colt 6 shots at 25 yards stiff wind right to left across target

[Drydock]

Just to add:  I load dry balls and powder, and then smush a chunk of beeswax/olive oil over just the first chamber.  Just to keep the fouling soft, and the workings greased.  This works well for a CAS match, with a minimum of fuss and time consumed.

I would avoid Lard, a lot of it has salt added.