loading blackpowder, lead balls & lard or tallow ??

[blackpowder]

Hi all around,

I am fairly new to blackpowder shooting and thus far always shot my model 1860 colt .44 loaded with powder, a felt wad and a lead ball in exactly that sequence (don't laugh, I've seen other things too). This weekend at the range I observed an experienced shooter fill the ends of his chambers with a lard or tallow kind of grease after loading. He just topped off the remaining quarter of an inch or so with that greasy mess. When I asked him what good that does, he said you should never shoot lead balls dry - always add some type of grease after the ball. He didn't know why but always did it that way since he learned to shoot cap & ball over 40 years ago.

Can anyone shed some light on this practise? Perhaps I am just ignorant because I am new to this?

Thanks!   

[Major 2]

I've done it... mostly a waste of time the flame from the adjacent fired shots melts & blows it away.... to smear all over the barrel.
It was said to do so, was to prevent chain fire, but a proper fitted bullet or round ball cut ring. seals the chamber...
Way more likely to get a chain fire from ill fitting percussion caps.

Lubed felt wads , I like Bore Butter , but Wonder Lube or Tallow worked into dry wads work just as well and suffecent to keep the fouling soft in the bore.

Reenactors do use wads with a dolop of grease as you descride as blanks.

[hellgate]

BP,
There's nothing wrong with overball lube. I still do it occasionally at the end of a shooting string or CAS match just to soften fouling on the last stage or cylinder. When really cold and the lube is hard I have used GOOP hand cleaner from a syringe to apply it. I prefer to buy Circle Fly 45 cal 1/2" thick fiber wads and then split and lube them. You can split them in half or 3rds. I lube them with beeswax and cooking oil melted together either 50/50 mix or if in the cold winter 1:3 wax:oil. Probably just oil would work fine too. If you are buying felt then punch them out first with a 7/16" hole punch chucked into a drill press over a wood block and then lube them. The thinner wads allow you to use more powder. I use the thicker 1/4" wads for target or match loads and 20 grs powder. I can get 30grs under the thinner fiber or felt wads.

[Coffinmaker]

BP,
I'm with Hellgate.  Except, a gob of goo over the ball doesn't actually do much.  Firing the adjacent chamber mostly blows it all away and being in front of the ball, what's left just gets shoved out the end of the barrel.  The gob does serve to get barrel lug all gooey.

Properly fitted balls/bullets will prevent chain fire as will properly fitted Caps.  The better bet is is an under ball lubed wad or a lube carrying projectile like the EPP UG and EPP 36 which carry a boat load of lube where it needs to be.

The chamber filling gob of goo is a leftover from days of yore when folks didn't know any better and just parroted "knowledge" as if it were gospel.  First learned - Best Remember'd sort of thing.

[Major 2]

Isn't that what I wrote ? 

[Mogorilla]

Hey BP,
first, welcome to the fun.    I am a self taught shooter with now 20+ years of mistakes.   I read all the theories, so first time I shot it was a warm day (90+).   I tried the over bullet stuff, messy as all get out.   When next I tried it, it was nearly 15 F (not quite).   Having done both extremes, and seeing now benefit, those were the only two times I did it.   I do like bore butter for the after wash "oiling" of the equipment.   I have also used wads.  I used them far longer than the two times I tried gooping the cylinders.   I actually do still use the wads when I have them.   I think they do keep barrel fouling down somewhat.    But, a patch with some bore butter put down the barrel as you shoot can do the same for cheaper.   regardless of how I load, the accuracy stays the same, but it is my hands doing the shooting. 

I will say this, I have only had 1 chainfire, it was due to poor fitting caps, and I have only had a few misfires, mainly due to poor fitting caps falling down into the works.    Get a good set of nipples and find the caps it likes to eat.  Keep your gun clean (I follow my dad's rule, if you shoot it, clean it that day.   Only exception is if it is too late, it is done first thing the following morning.)  Having done that, I can cycle through with my Cap and Ball  pistols all the live long day.

[cheatin charlie]

The civil war period loading instructions for the Starr revolver instructed that after loading cylinder with powder and conical bullet to put
grease over the chambers to lube the barrel to prevent leading.  But remember most people were using unlubed conical bullets in war.
Maybe the old timers knew what they were talking about?

[blackpowder]

@Mogorilla, thanks for the tips from experience and yes, I do clean my pistol after each shooting because blackpowder is sort of aggressive on steel.

As a newbe I have many things to learn. As it is I load dry powder, a small square piece of dry felt (size of a thumbnail) and an ordinary un-lubed round lead ball. I usually shoot about 2 to 3 cylinders at most and never find barrel fouling an issue, or any leading of the barrel. So what am I doing wrong? maybe barrel fouling and leading only becomes an issue if you put 2 dozen or so balls or bullets through the barrel during one shooting.....? 

[Arizona Trooper]

I have done both grease/bore butter and wonder wads at various times, and cardboard card wads too. For the last few years I have been dipping the balls in melted bees wax/olive oil, (80% wax/20% oil or there abouts) and loading right over the powder. This works very well at keeping the powder fouling soft without turning your revolver into a greasy mess, and accuracy is excellent, much better than with wads. On the other end of the chamber, replace the factory cones with Ampcos. Caps stay on without pinching them, and your chance of chain fires is greatly reduced.

[hellgate]

BP,
You are correct. You aren't shooting enough to foul out the barrel or cylinder pin. A lot of the discussion on techniques to prevent fouling originated with the use of C&Bs in Cowboy Action Shooting where we would put 30 rounds through each revolver in one day. The gumming up of the cylinder pin and bore fouling became an issue when the guns were used in excess of their design. Keep in mind that the "six shooter" came about on the heels of the single shot percussion pistols. Blackbeard the pirate carried 6 or 8 single shot pistols hanging under his coat. Suddenly you had SIX TIMES THE FIREPOWER of just a few years prior. The revolvers were designed to fire 6 shots and then be holstered and the sword or fighting knife drawn. For those more savvy, a second loaded revolver was drawn (hence the two gun rig). Even more savvy Confederate irregulars would carry 4-6 revolvers for cavalry engagements. The fired revolvers would then be cleaned and reloaded at a less hectic time. A simple load of powder, ball and cap was just fine if the gun were to only fire its 6 shots and be put away but if sustained shooting of 30 rounds in a row was going to happen the C&Bs would have eventually resembled the Ruger Old Army with its cylinder bushing and narrow frame slot for the hammer.

[greyhawk]

Hi all around,

I am fairly new to blackpowder shooting and thus far always shot my model 1860 colt .44 loaded with powder, a felt wad and a lead ball in exactly that sequence (don't laugh, I've seen other things too). This weekend at the range I observed an experienced shooter fill the ends of his chambers with a lard or tallow kind of grease after loading. He just topped off the remaining quarter of an inch or so with that greasy mess. When I asked him what good that does, he said you should never shoot lead balls dry - always add some type of grease after the ball. He didn't know why but always did it that way since he learned to shoot cap & ball over 40 years ago.

Can anyone shed some light on this practise? Perhaps I am just ignorant because I am new to this?

Thanks!   

More controversy ---this will be fun !!
What you do works - what hes doin works - some places they wont let you shoot dry ball loads so that can complicate things some - its no fun arguin with the range officer about whether or not you are safe.
Last year I did a makeover on two old clones that were not particularly good shooters - found deep rifling with groove size waaaaaaayy over the chamber size so I ended up reaming cylinders out to get us a ball that actually could fill the rifling instead of just rattling down the middle of it -- as part of that process and after it I put a couple hundred through, shooting for group off a rest - load testing - round ball only - full charges of FFg - ended up with both guns with a double thickness eggcarton wad (lube soaked) under the ball but the walker did its best with a thin smear of lube over the ball in addition to the wads (just enough to fill the gap around outside of ball to cylinder..
For the fellers that reckon first shot blows the overball lube off the front end 1) too much cylinder gap, 2) crummy lube --- dispense with the pump grease and the likes - use an over ball lube thick enough to trowell it on with a tounge depressor / wooden spatula - most of it will stay put!   

[Coffinmaker]

After having seen my previous post go Piffft > > > > Tink.  (Fumble fingers at work  )  I thought I should include  annudder thought. Well, Maybe not "should" but hey ... Why Not?? 

I'm in with Hellgate and greyhawk both.  There are things we do today, with our Cap Guns that just weren't done in those halcyon days of yesteryear.  Nobody, absolutely nobody tried to reload a Cap Gun in the heat of a fight.  A really good example of just how bad an idea it would be exists in the film Quigley Down Under.  The not so good guy trying to reload under stress is a really good example of "not a good idea."

Playing the game of CAS, we do things with our Cap Guns would have given Old Mr Colt nightmares.  As Hellgate points out, it was "6 and done".  Either pull another gun or RUN!!  We, on the other hand have had to develop techniques to keep em running for at least 30 rounds per day .. at least.  Many, and I'm one, will run the same guns for a two or three day match and run them without full cleaning.  there is very little C.R.A.P. (Carbonized Randomly accelerated Particulates "to quote Bunk") left in the chambers.  Running a patch (wet) through the bore works wonders (I like wet with PAM)

Until you get to the point you cylinder won't turn or you can't find any holes inna paper, keep having fun with your Cap Guns.  Oh, forgot, My prime take, is most if not all over ball goo is blown off when the adjacent chamber firs.  However.  In all honesty, I can't actually prove that.  I don't use lube(s) at all as I shoot a Sub that requires no lube (APP) and were I to interrupt my CAS partner, who does put goo on his balls (snicker snicker) after each shot, to inspect his gooey balls (Chortle chortle snicker) I probably wouldn't survive the match   

[Major 2]

" ...After having seen my previous post go Piffft > > > > Tink.  (Fumble fingers at work  


ummmmmmmmm  oops ?        saray 'bout dat !  

[greyhawk]

After having seen my previous post go Piffft > > > > Tink.  (Fumble fingers at work  )  I thought I should include  annudder thought. Well, Maybe not "should" but hey ... Why Not?? 

I'm in with Hellgate and greyhawk both.  There are things we do today, with our Cap Guns that just weren't done in those halcyon days of yesteryear.  Nobody, absolutely nobody tried to reload a Cap Gun in the heat of a fight.  A really good example of just how bad an idea it would be exists in the film Quigley Down Under.  The not so good guy trying to reload under stress is a really good example of "not a good idea."

Playing the game of CAS, we do things with our Cap Guns would have given Old Mr Colt nightmares.  As Hellgate points out, it was "6 and done".  Either pull another gun or RUN!!  We, on the other hand have had to develop techniques to keep em running for at least 30 rounds per day .. at least.  Many, and I'm one, will run the same guns for a two or three day match and run them without full cleaning.  there is very little C.R.A.P. (Carbonized Randomly accelerated Particulates "to quote Bunk") left in the chambers.  Running a patch (wet) through the bore works wonders (I like wet with PAM)

Until you get to the point you cylinder won't turn or you can't find any holes inna paper, keep having fun with your Cap Guns.  Oh, forgot, My prime take, is most if not all over ball goo is blown off when the adjacent chamber firs.  However.  In all honesty, I can't actually prove that.  I don't use lube(s) at all as I shoot a Sub that requires no lube (APP) and were I to interrupt my CAS partner, who does put goo on his balls (snicker snicker) after each shot, to inspect his gooey balls (Chortle chortle snicker) I probably wouldn't survive the match   

some history (not that we's old or anything) when I started with my capgun I follered the good advice in a book writ by some bloke way smarter than me that said 1) ya gots to use grease over the ball 2) the ideal stuff to use is waterpump grease ------yeah? By time ya finish loadin one cyinder full with pump grease over the ball its all over ya hands , the grips, everywhere - then pull the trigger an like CM says grease goes everywhere - I reckon about half what was put over the ball is splattered all over the front end .....so the point??? --- smart fellers sometimes give out dumb advice like in that book - some fellers (me) even take dumb advice cuz they didnt bail up long enough to think about it. We were already making decent blackpowder lube for our rifles - beeswax and oil - used that over the ball and most of the hassles disappeared. I still load my 51 navy fake 44 with lube over top and no wads - its always shot good like that - fairly shallow rifling and a nice cylinder to bore fit------ but junior has a walker and a army colt with deep groove barrels that need lubed wads on the powder ----- round ball cap guns tuned a bit and loaded right have / will surprise a lot of blokes how well they can shoot - talkin ten ring at 25 yards excluding operator fault.     

[blackpowder]

I have done both grease/bore butter and wonder wads at various times, and cardboard card wads too. For the last few years I have been dipping the balls in melted bees wax/olive oil, (80% wax/20% oil or there abouts) and loading right over the powder. This works very well at keeping the powder fouling soft without turning your revolver into a greasy mess, and accuracy is excellent, much better than with wads. On the other end of the chamber, replace the factory cones with Ampcos. Caps stay on without pinching them, and your chance of chain fires is greatly reduced.

Ok, just to get some of my misconceptions out of the way - like you've got to keep your powder dry, for instance? Now I would think dipping balls in olive oil and soaking wads with all kinds of grease would at least get the top layer of powder damp (the grains coming into direct contact with the goo and oil). Does that work? Well, obviously it does, right?

And what would keep me from just loading round balls over dry powder, using no wads or over ball grease at all?

Sorry if I sound ignorant

[Mogorilla]

No apologies, we all started somewhere and only dumb question is the unasked one.   Will warn you, if you get the fever hide the credit cards.   

[greyhawk]

Ok, just to get some of my misconceptions out of the way - like you've got to keep your powder dry, for instance? Now I would think dipping balls in olive oil and soaking wads with all kinds of grease would at least get the top layer of powder damp (the grains coming into direct contact with the goo and oil). Does that work? Well, obviously it does, right?

And what would keep me from just loading round balls over dry powder, using no wads or over ball grease at all?

Sorry if I sound ignorant

How do chain fires happen?? there has been long and winding argument/discussion right here about that (you might find it an interesting read) - no concrete verdict came to pass but many of the folk who write match safety rules and such believe that no wads or grese up front encourages it to happen so they require lube wads or lube over the ball for safety.

I am sure that lack of proper clearance for the capped nipples at the recoil shield is a prime factor in chain fires - but also - the one and only time that I loaded a cap gun without grease over or a luibed wad was the one time in 20 some years that I had a double discharge - ie one went down the barrel and another went out the side of the frame at the same time.

Chain fires occasionally happen with cap an ball guns and most times the shooter can not prove what was the cause - you might load dry a thousand times and nothing happens - if your revolver chambers are slick and smooth, if you have oversize balls that shave a decent lead ring off when you load, if the nipples are in good shape and caps fit neat, if there is safe clearance for the capped niples at the recoil shield during discharge

Lube bleeding into the powder ? definitely a factor with more liquid lubes - my lube is made stiff enough it dont run - 45 to 55% beeswax depending on the weather and the lubed wads we use here are soaked in hot melted lube before they are cut (punched)  a few powder grains stick to it. It all burns and gives no sign of weakened charge.  

[hellgate]

I like to use a wad lube that is solid a room temperature. I've seen where too much soft/mushy lube in the wad contaminated the powder and the shooter had numerous "floofers" & misfires. He just way overlubed the wads with too soft lube and forced it into the powder (Black MZ by the way). I've seen a lot of flaming wads that carried burning powder granules to the target & beyond (fire hazard) which indicates too much lube. I would never use a lubed wad of any kind if I were to keep the gun loaded for an extended period of time due to eventual leaching of oil into the powder.

[Coffinmaker]

Absolutely (Stolen famous movie wurd).  There have been so many discussions about the cause of a Chain Fire, one could write a primer and every chapter would be authored by someone with a different theory.  There is a small problem.  Nobody has managed to be around in front to watch the event unfold.  A year or two ago (I think) a fella was shooting and filming a Cap Gun when it Chained.  Then it was heavy reviewed in Slo Mo.  The Cap ignition and the cylinder front ignition were so close together there was no way to tell where the Chain actually started.  So there was the usual discussion of "well, what I saw" whether one could actually "see" it or not. 

So there are many theories.  Actually too many to try and go into them here.  My thought:  Minimize the Hazard.  Use a nice soft cast or swaged ball just oversize for the chamber mouth so you shave a nice ring all around the ball.  Chamber is sealed.  Use a Cap that fits the nipple.  I mean fits the nipple "tight."  Nipple is sealed.  I also am a proponent of Slixshot nipples (cones) with Remington # 10 Caps for not only a good fit, but really good ignition.

Now the question begs .... Will this prevent Chain Fire??  Probably.  Perhaps not absolutely.  Remember ... Regardless, "Murphy"  WILL be in attendance.  And again, I completely agree with Hellgate.  Unless your going to shoot "right now" skip the gooey wads.  They will contaminate the powder.  Above all else ...... HAVE FUN!!!

[Bunk]

Personally I use a 1/8" felt wad soaked in a mixture of 50:50 by weight of tallow rendered from beef kidney fat and paraffin wax.
In the past my experience with adding any oil to the mix winds up with the oil bleeding out because apparently it does not dissolve in the tallow/wax mix.
Perhaps there may a difference with sheep tallow  but I live in beef country where that kind of fat is available and is easily rendered into tallow. I have some tallow that is two years old in a tin container kept in my shop and it shows no hint of getting rancid.
I have been told that lard from the grocery has salt added to it. Pure leaf lard is available but I am not in the pig business while beef fat is.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk