The current Economics of the SAA

[yahoody]

In the SAA world seems nothing stays the same.

Spent some time rebuilding a vintage 1900 Colt yesterday.
What a piece of shxx this one was. It had a badly welded up original Colt hammer and all Uberti internals badly done. The entire internal set were trash.

My take is the current Uberti guns are better than the last 50 years or so of Colt production. Not as good as the USFA USA made production....but damn close to their equal and to Colt 2nd Gen/ 1st Gen guns.

Before any one gets all lathered up...pretty obvious I shoot them. But I also tear them down and rebuild them.
Frankly of the several 1st Gen guns I have here, including this newest 1900 gun, a current Uberti (Cimarron's versions with a proper hammer) is a much, much better gun in every way. Only thing missing are a decent case colors.

The steel used today negated the need for a case hardened frame years ago. But I do like the look.

I've had enough of these guns (good Colts of every generation, current Pietta, current Uberti, USA made USFA) apart to tell you the modern guns are light years ahead of anything Colt is doing for a production gun. Most Pietta or Ubertis come perfectly timed. Externally the cosmetics are damn near perfect most of the time...they have sharp corners, smooth seams and very often shoot POA/POI as many of us are finding out. I will typically do a trigger job on mine but it sure isn't required.

Uberti and Pietta are way, way beyond what Colt production internal parts with dang near perfect timing every time as almost drop in parts.

Just for fun when I was rebuilding this 1900 vintage Colt, after wrestling with proper Colt parts for a couple of hours to get it right, once done, I pulled everything out and started over. Still had a new 1st gen cylinder in the gun, Colt hand, but then I dropped in a USFA hammer with a new cam, that fits better than the original rebuilt Colt (and a choice of firing pin styles with the USFA hammers), a Colt bolt, and finally a USFA trigger.

The 1900 Colt is better for the parts change. I am a little less inclined to believe everything I hear these days after that experience. Plenty of smoke and mirrors else where.

If I have learned anything from rebuilding this 1900 Colt, it would be, Colt for the most part kept trying to make a better SAA from day one till rather recently. I'd venture to say some of the most recent last production guns were the best Colts ever made. Not an opinion I held until the last few weeks. But that aint saying Colt has built the best SAAs...they clearly have not. I do believe Italy (or Italian CNC programs anyway as in USFA) holds that title.

Uberti SAAs being better than Colt? Again not an opinion I've held until recently.

I like nice cosmetics just not enough generally that I want to pay or wait for them to be done right. If I really wanted a "nice" SAA, I'd buy a current Cimarron...make sure it shoots at what ever level I required then I'd sent it off to Turnbull, to have the gun color cased and reblued. Might even have the Italian roll marks removed while it is being done.

Here are some gun economics for you. Recent purchases.

Top one is a 1900 vintage Colt in 45 Colt which cost me $2000. Since then I have added ivory grips, a new set of screws and springs, all new internals including the hammer and a new cylinder. Stripped the bad nickel and had it reblued with no additional buffing. It still needs to be remarked and a "real" finish applied. All this for a gun worth may be $3000 including the ivory (carved ivory worth $1000 now) when I am done.

Middle gun is a USFA USA made Rodeo .45 Colt, paid $935 delivered off GB. 2 piece wood grips, polished cylinder.

Bottom guns is a Dixie Gun Works Uberti, BP frame, 44 Special. I added a Cimarron old style hammer and did a trigger job, Cost was $640 all in.



All three guns are decent shooters as they sit today. The Uberti 44 Special is the best shooting gun in the group.....

[Coffinmaker]

As many Single Actions as I worked on during my active years Gunplumbing, I can find nothing I can argue here.  Just the way it is. 

As an additional, with the current market base, nobody can really afford "start up" production of a quality Single Action.  There just is not enough market to be able to amortize start up costs and make a profit.  The market just isn't there anymore and going forward probably never will be.  I also do not expect to see Colt return the SAA to production.

[yahoody]

"I also do not expect to see Colt return the SAA to production. "

Scary we agree on all of it.

Much to the consternation of a number of the forum membership this thread as locked shortly after posting on the Colt forum.
Thought this an interesting and likely very true  comment.  Original thread here...

https://www.coltforum.com/forums/single-action-army/339925-saa-economics.html

The backstrap ears / hammer profile match is one of the first things I notice when I pick up an SAA. I'll agree that the fit is better on the 3rd gen SAAs built in the last 10 - 15 years, but no where near as consistent as what Uberti turns out.

Possibly one of the reasons that hasn't been considered for the superior backstrap ears / hammer fit, as well as timing on the Ubertis, is that Uberti probably produces more "SAAs" in a month than Colt produces in a year. Uberti clearly has a big edge in "SAA" expertise.

Best regards,

[Coyyote]

Howdy Yahoody, I moved over here from Colt Forum as I am a shooter not a collector.  My three Ubertis shoot every bit as well as my Colts and the price for one 3rd gen Colt would cover the price of all three Ubertis.

[yahoody]

Hey 'Yote.  Seemed old Guy got a burr under his saddle after someone pissed in his cereal

Flock 'um 

[Graveyard Jack]

I am simply interested in the best SAA available and the best value. Care not whose name is on it. Would prefer to cut through the old wives tales, 40yr old bias and romantic nonsense. I'd rather base my perspective objectively, on facts, than cult-like dedication to the name of a man t hat's been dead for +150yrs. I know that Uberti wasn't that great 30yrs ago, even though I bought my first in 1986 and it's never given me a minute's trouble but if in 2018 they're as good as a Colt, I wanna know about it and why. The Colt was high for all the years it was ~$1200 but you could somewhat justify it because they were better guns with real color case hardening. Then along came USFA and they showed us how good an SAA could be. Better than a Colt at $750 or even better than that in the $1200 Pre-war.

I would like to see the guns tested to destruction like Linebaugh did with the Ruger Blackhawk. I know that won't happen but that's the kind of info I'm interested in.

Uberti has definitely upped their game in recent years and maybe we don't need to lament the passing of USFA quite as loudly. I've a pair of flat-tops now (SAA and Bisley) that I will not hesitate to use as the basis for rather expensive custom guns. Even though I sincerely hate to part with the fantastic factory colors.



They're excellent guns and I no longer think twice about spending the money on them.

[yahoody]

Yes Sir.  I have some nice Colt's.  And some even  nicer USFA guns.  Nice in that they shoot exceptionally well.  But at the moment a new Cimarron Uberti in 44 Special and 5.5" barrel might well be the best SAA I own.  It sure shoots like it wants to be.

I have a 4 3/4" Cimarron Prewar showing up tomorrow, also in 44 Special, that I have high hopes for as well.

But to date, all of my recent Uberti purchases have been really, really good guns.  Like Craig said, not the Uberti's of 30 years ago for sure.  But what amazes me is they are still the same price....not accounting for inflation which would just make them a LOT cheaper.

[Graveyard Jack]

Despite the blackpowder frame sights, this Cimarron .44Spl is a great shooter. I've decided to spent a lot of time with it to get the sights dialed in just right.

[yahoody]

Craig that one has a cross in frame...does it also have true V notch rear sight and a tapered front blade?  If so who imported it and when?  Thanks.

[yahoody]

Thought I should add for some clarity on the Ubertis from a previous conversation today .  This is my 6th recent Uberti purchase.  The Cimarron 44 Special, 4 3/4", is fresh off the boat from Italy.

"first talking about the new safety here"....

>Had 3-4 failure to fire this afternoon with the floating pin.

Had wondered after looking at the design...

Got the newest Cimarron in a few minutes ago. Not so lucky this time. Played with new hammer safety. learned how it worked and the down side. Decent trigger but as you mentioned heavily sprung...as part of the safety and a different main spring than what I had gotten on other guns. Looks like the parts have been changed a lot internally...cheaper. All the screws were overly soft. Stripped the bolt/spring screw in short order...trash. No need here to carry 6, took me a five minutes to decide to change out the hammer and trigger.   Damn it...guess I need to buy a few more spares if I want another Uberti.  Makes Pietta look good again.

Not something easy to TIG or epoxy and ever trust I suspect. No question would need to be welded to be reliable. Even then you'd still need to cut off the extra metal on the trigger. Internally the timing was good, as was the trigger really. 3 clicks was disconcerting. Easier answer is just new parts. They do drop in. Not a fan of a Series 80 trigger in a 1911. Know how to set them up and no problem getting a nice crisp trigger on a Series '80 gun. Also know the down side. This new Uberti safety reminds me of the same. Not something I want on my gun. .004 cylinder gap was good. But not great. Other parts like grip frame and grips pretty shoddy by comparison to my Dixies and BP Cimarrons (earlier manufactured guns curious now to see when all were built). This one was just off the boat last week, so current production. Nice square sights like a USFA. The rest nothing to write home about. Pretty disappointing really. Won't buy another. Might buy another DGW version in BP. Going to shoot it now. More later.  {more likely now after shooting this one to sell the BP frame and buy another Prewar and rebuild again...don't want four and for sure want matching sights on a pair.  Forgot how much easier to shoot the bigger notch and square front sight really is.}

>So from what I hear from you the Uberti quality control seems to vary some....

For sure on cosmetics. Timing has been good in my 6. But 6 is not much of a sample and 3 of those I changed the hammers out but the hammer cam and bolt are consistant enough to keep the guns spot on for timing. Cimarron so far is the most inconsistent. DGW the most consistant with BP frames.

> DGW put the gunsmith on the line and he would help select a good one out of their stock FWIW. I had sent that Bisley back that was in poor shape and she was eager to get me a good one.

that's good to know

Shooting the newest 44 Special Prewar?  Much as I wanted to hate this one after putting in the new parts and doing a trigger job...bad grips, bad grip frame to frame  fit and the worthless screws. Was driving to the range and thought I should just put the original parts back in, box it back up and sell it as is.

Of course that didn't happen.  Easier nut to swallow the fook ups at $500.  Went to the range, shot a few out of the same gun with a BP frame from DGW. Felt pretty good, so sat down and started shooting some groups to see where the sights were. Way too tall for my 240s gr lead I was shooting so in for a penny and all. Pulled out the file and started cutting. Got so I was putting them all I the same hole @ 15 POA/POI. Easy to call the shot with a nice trigger and decent sights. Windage was spot on...if it hadn't been I would have never cut the front sight. My goodness a set of decent, square SAA sights do make a difference coming from the V notch BP guns

Ran the target out to 25 yards and was shooting it better there than I can most of my 7.5" guns. Might actually be the best of my Uberti guns for sights, trigger and accuracy. All in a 4 3/4" package. I like that. Much as I wanted to get rid of it guess I'll keep it and make a pair of grips for it when I get some time. Bought a set of blanks that are the recent fake ivory under discussion.  Weighs in almost exactly what ivory does which I wouldn't have believed. Likely make up a pair of one piece in that material and put those on.

As much as things are wrong on the Ubertis from any importer gotta say they sure shoot. Proof is in the pudding there. I can fix the cosmetics and trivial chit. Buy the right parts as required but hard to do anything with them if they don't shoot. You know, hand guns that really do shoot well aren't all that common off the shelf. Uberti is doing a dang good job getting their priorities right on these guns much to my surprise. Nice, by accident or design, to actually have enough front sight to cut down and sight the gun in.

Have a great 4th!

[Graveyard Jack]

It's a Cimarron and I bought it used two years ago, so it's several years old. I'll get the date code later. It has the crosspin frame and blackpowder sights. Like every other friggin' Uberti I own. My only squared-up, 2nd generation style sight guns are Colt's and USFA's. It's really my only complaint.

When it comes to shopping for new guns, I cheat. I drive about 2hrs to the north to DGW and handle several. That said, the flat-top and 1851 I bought last year required no cherry-picking but I handled half a dozen 1860 R-M's and didn't find one that the bolt didn't drag. Bummer because they were otherwise gorgeous.

[LonesomePigeon]

 I appreciate the information you are providing Yahoody. I only have one Uberti SAA replica, a 2017 production Flattop Target .44-40 with 7 1/2" barrel from Dixie Gun Works. It has an Old Model frame with the two-position cylinder pin and the old hammer block safety.

[yahoody]

Appreciated Craig.  Not seen one, but sure would like to have one with V sights and a cross pin frame.  Very traditional Colt configuration there.  Nice to have a place to start that search!

Thanks LP.   For all of us chasing high dollar Colt and USFA guns nice to know there is a option every bit the equal IMO if not better than either of the two.  Mighty proud statement I know, but with just a little elbow grease and may be a part or two @ $550 the Uberti quality is hard to ignore when you can easily buy 3 and if pressed 4 compared to the USFA and Colt prices.   

I too have one of the DW flat tops.  Always wanted one and they are an exceptional deal @ $450.   I bought it with a 44 Special 7.5" just to have the option of changing cylinders between them.  $1050 delivered over night for the pair.   I justified that price just to have a flat top compared to the USFA prices.   Gotta love that!   Had a new Pietta 44-40 at the same time with 2 more in 45.  Comparing the the Flat Top and the Pietta is what really encouraged me to stay with the Uberti guns.  All the cylinders were easy to swap in and out of the two Ubertis, then, three, then four...you get the idea

Kept just one of the Piettas.

The base pin is easy enough to cut off, flush cylinder retaining screws can be bought and hammers are/or can be simply drop in.  The FT is my one Uberti I have yet to change the hammer on.  The sights and wide trigger sure make it an easy gun to shoot well.  Mine has a exceptional trigger as well right out of the box...that never hurts.   Haven't  set up a machine in 44-40 yet been too easy to slum it and just run 44 Special so if the Flat Top goes to the range I  will typically just rob  one of the 44S of a cylinder.  Guess I should just buy a spare and sight the gun in proper and cut the front sight as needed for my 240gr 44 Special loads. 

[Dave T]

I never was much of a gunsmith, and with arthritis and numb fingers I ain't likely to be doing much fine fitting or stoning...even if I know what to fit and/or stone.

So, buying one of these wonderful Uberti revolvers you guys are talking about, then having to take it to a gunsmith to have several of a dwindling supply of parts fitted doesn't sound like quite the bargain you are portraying it to be.

LOL -  I'm getting too old to be buying and selling many more guns. Heck, the wife wants me to get rid of the ones I have before I bite the big bullet so she doesn't have to get ripped off selling them. Can't really blame her either.

Think I'll stick to the USFAs I have and enjoy their quality while I still can. To those who like the various Italian guns (Uberti or Pietta), more power to you and good shooting!

Dave

[yahoody]

Hope no one misses the point of the conversation Dave.

At $1000+ for most any USFA and hitting $2500 for the best of them and the same with Colt,  a $450 Uberti  is a bargain by any account.  The Uberti's actually shoot, which USFA did as well for the most part but Colt not so much (certainly hit or miss) in the last 3rd gens to date.

Of my six Ubertis I've stone one replacement hammer, done no fitting.   And I could have just left them as is out of the box and had  fine shooters....out of the box for $550, delivered to your local FFL.

You're the fella that wanted  BP framed guns.  Uberti and Pietta both make them..lots of them.  The Pietta doesn't take any additional parts to make them "right".  Pietta is as close a copy as being made to a 2nd Gen Colt, including a current production Colt.  Might easier to find as well.

I have Colt's and USFA guns.  I have less to complain about with a $550 Italian gun.   Which is why I was buying or trading 3rd Gen Colt's for Premium grade USFA guns when they were $700.  But given a choice between a current  Uberti even having to swap out parts and a NIB Rodeo at $1500?  I'll take two (as in 2) of the Ubertis...at least as good of gun and way prettier than matte blue or an "antique" finish some one came up with in the back room.  ( I know you're partial to the "Gunslinger" which is 20 minutes work on a Rodeo).

If I was gonna buy just one SAA style gun and wanted it to shoot from the box nothing needed...the logical choice would be a new or like NIB late model Premium or Prewar USFA with a 26000 serial number or later.   Cost?  Likely  well over $2000, but $2500 would get you one easy enough of the more common calibers or barrel length.

Or knowing the difference and what needs to be "fixed" I just buy a Uberti.  (or a few Ubertis)



Left to right and recent cost @ purchase.  USFA USA made Rodeo 45 Colt, polished cylinder and 2 piece wood grips, $935. delivered a coule of months ago.  DGW Uberti BP frame, 44 Special, $550 delivered this month.  Add $90 for a new, drop in hammer.  USFA, USA made 38, turned down hammer, Premium grade gun, $2600 delivered four years ago.  Cimarron Uberti,  44 Special, $450 delivered this week, add $120 for a new, drop in hammer and trigger.  USFA, USA made, BP frame 45.  Turnbull Prewar finish.  Paid $2300 for it  four years ago NIB.